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[DailyMail] 'Forced to stand for 24 hours, suicide nets, toxin exposure and explosions': Inside the Chinese factories making iPads for Apple - Page 15

post #141 of 172
To defend myself...my CLAIM, was that labor costs are not, alone, a prohibitive consideration when looking at the viability of production in domestic manufacturing. And I believe I made my point regarding it.

The rest of this has been, from my view, you guys finding a conclusion you like, which is the justification of continued support for this system of globalization, and then working back to the logic behind it. Calling a spade a spade.
 
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post #142 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfunkmort View Post

To defend myself...my CLAIM, was that labor costs are not, alone, a prohibitive consideration when looking at the viability of production in domestic manufacturing. And I believe I made my point regarding it.
The rest of this has been, from my view, you guys finding a conclusion you like, which is the justification of continued support for this system of globalization, and then working back to the logic behind it. Calling a spade a spade.
What is the point of such a claim though? It is a prohibitive consideration to many companies. Not to Apple, since they make good products and have gobs of profit margin because of it, but many companies operate on much thinner margins, and absolutely could not afford to bring manufacturing to the US. And who knows, Apple may be in that place someday as well.

So, no, labor costs alone are not a prohibitive consideration when looking at the viability of production in domestic manufacturing for Apple specifically, but what's your point? Why does that matter?
post #143 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by illum View Post


You cannot push down profits, it is the way of capitalism. Either we have to change, I.E become less greedy(impossible) or learn to live with it.
I myself count myself lucky that i was born to my parents(well atleast my father) and then go my merry way and make money however possible. I as a single person cannot change this way, so till it does i will do what must be done to thrive.

First let me suggest the "greed" is not impossible to extinguish. Greed is a human condition that is CELEBRATED in this system, you yourself celebrate it by pretending that it is so inherently human that we are incapable of getting over it. That is a fallacy. As for the last point, basic transformational change only happens at the level of the individual. The fact that you recognize the system as flawed, yet trap yourself in the mindset of it's unbreakable hold on humanity is a condition that makes it impossible to change. Slavery had a hold on mankind, feudalism as well, I could go on, fact is we create this world, not it creating us(besides the materials we take a transform tem into whatever).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

Well it isn't in America. Give the person standing in a line at a Salvation Army trying to get a pair a shoes for their children this opportunity and many would jump on it...at least the smarter ones. I sure know I would. People need to learn to work again. I've already done things like working a full time job at night and a part time job in the day, and granted...I did get a 15 minutes break a couple times a day; it was still hot sweaty, back breaking work. I know the average US citizen would not have lasted a day in. Plus I was attending college! and I survived without killing myself or dying from working. Look at some of the trouble going on right now in the South. Due to new immigration laws a lot of farms can't get workers. US workers will try the job and then leave after a week. This attitude that we Americans shouldn't have to work hard needs to disappear and fast.
Give it some time...one day people will be begging for work conditions like this since there would at least be work. The lifestyle that most of the "Western World" has grown accustomed to is not sustainable. It is becoming more and more official that the newest generation of children in the US are not going to see the same quality of life that their parents have right now and I hate it. I look at my kids and hate it and there is nothing I can do about it, but try to instill some work ethics in them. This is the first time in history that this has happened. Not even the Great Depression had this effect.
And yes, things need to get better in China and they are, but at the same point things need to get worse every where else, or else things will get REALLY worse.
Add still...if it truly is THAT bad in this ONE factory...then they should leave and try for something else. We are talking about what? 10,000? 20,000 workers? Maybe not even that many...I know I've read the number but I can't remember it right now and it isn't important. The point is that there all sort of other existing jobs in China that they can at least attempt to get. If you don't like where you are, only you you can change it. It might mean sacrificing a lot, but it will get you out and if that is your goal than do whatever it takes to get there.

You seem very confused. As a point of fact, Americans work harder than they have in a century. Just look at the numbers, we are also 100x MORE productive as well. Yet you say we need to learn to work more? How? 60 hour work weeks? All of this of course smacks into the wall of the wealth we have created as a country. It is enough to pay every family of 4 100k for 20 hours of work. Think of that, that tells me the problem is NOT we don't "work hard" or any other propaganda that you have been fed. The system is inherently unequal, and as such you get conditions that you seem to dispise while praise at the same time? "Americans would be begging for jobs like this when things get bad" What? Have we lost all sense of what lead to this country? The age of enlightenment ideals? It's sad.

The rest of your post smacks of extreme ignorance, this is not one factory, it's indicative of all of the developing world, they are exploited so we can consume cheaply. To suggest they just go to another job is as stupid as saying that 120 years ago in America, when people coming off the farms had no choice BUT to work once they arrived in the cities. You give your opinions on these things in the comfort of deep-seated ignorance, and it's a problem you should remedy post haste with some actual education on labor, and history in general of capitalist society/.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Yeah, congratulations. And your labor movement that you revere so highly is also almost single-handedly responsible for driving most manufacturing jobs out of the country. The Unionization of American workers strangled the businesses that were employing them to the point of closing or outsourcing. I'm sure the millions of unemployed and unskilled laborers would thank your Union "ancestors" for the great work hours and conditions if only they could ever actually, you know, find jobs.... rolleyes.gif

I love this argument. It makes no sense at all. The US had a peak of unionization in the 1950s(America's golden age for many) that number stood around 53%, since that time it has dropped shaply, now private unionization is at 7% of the workforce. You are chasing a red herring, and you have been fooled by it. Look what happened to England with Margaret Thatcher, she destroyed the unions in England in the name of privatization and "free market principals" HAHA!. The result? Britain now longer MAKES ANYTHING, they became a paper pusher and since the whole system collapsed 3 years ago they are in serious trouble, worse still is they still think themselves a "power" and are being increasingly left behind in the EU, after all England is an island, that got it's raise to power through wool, and later naval might.

You confuse to historical events for the causes of your scorn for labor unions. You should learn some more about the 70's and how it changed America, and the cause was NOT unions, far from it. It's amazing how unions are demonized. They deserve it for many reasons, but not the ones you speak of. Unions never should have been about better wages, it should have been about having control in the company. Oh well.

We are learning, Coops are one of the answers, you should check them out.
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post #144 of 172
My greater point was that most of the ceiling that exists to progress in U.S. manufacturing is from stigma and the communal shift to exported labor. With better structuring of regulatory bodies, access to materials, tax incentives for manufacturing growth, etc...we have the capacity to deal with the shortfall that exists and make it viable for a broader range of business to produce here. But the stigma, and the fact that everyone's doing it and no one cares, make it so that we don't have the force to do it, and these are the consequences. We lean on 3rd world countries and emerging markets who are DESPERATE for money, and allow our businesses to do things there which we shouldn't tolerate...and we do this INSTEAD of a more evolved and focused conversation on improving basic services and capacities throughout the world.
 
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post #145 of 172
I am shocked at the lack of sensitivity from some of you. just because your hiding behind a keyboard doesent give you the right to say whatever you want. Grow up, living with your mommy does not give you a good world perspective.

I feel for those people, and if apple or any company does that they should be punished accordingly. Human life and suffering is nothing to gawk at. I have been to other countries like china and they treat some of their people worse than animals. I think people on OCN can be more mature than to make a funny comment on something like this.

If you wanna make a joke than have the stones to find someone who has been in a form of labor abusive environment and say it to their face. Untill then show some form of respect and maturity.
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post #146 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimaggio1103 View Post

I am shocked at the lack of sensitivity from some of you. just because your hiding behind a keyboard doesent give you the right to say whatever you want. Grow up, living with your mommy does not give you a good world perspective.
I feel for those people, and if apple or any company does that they should be punished accordingly. Human life and suffering is nothing to gawk at. I have been to other countries like china and they treat some of their people worse than animals. I think people on OCN can be more mature than to make a funny comment on something like this.
If you wanna make a joke than have the stones to find someone who has been in a form of labor abusive environment and say it to their face. Untill then show some form of respect and maturity.

Yes sir no problem sir of course sir.

Sorry, but who do you think you are to tell people what to do? You yourself are hiding behind keyboard, acting like you own the site.
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post #147 of 172
Im telling people to have common respect, instead of making jokes at peoples suffering. What the prob?
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post #148 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfunkmort View Post

My greater point was that most of the ceiling that exists to progress in U.S. manufacturing is from stigma and the communal shift to exported labor. With better structuring of regulatory bodies, access to materials, tax incentives for manufacturing growth, etc...we have the capacity to deal with the shortfall that exists and make it viable for a broader range of business to produce here. But the stigma, and the fact that everyone's doing it and no one cares, make it so that we don't have the force to do it, and these are the consequences. We lean on 3rd world countries and emerging markets who are DESPERATE for money, and allow our businesses to do things there which we shouldn't tolerate...and we do this INSTEAD of a more evolved and focused conversation on improving basic services and capacities throughout the world.
I don't really understand what you are trying to say...

So, the reason that there is less manufacturing in the US than in China is because US manufacturing is stigmatized?

What do you mean by "make it so that we don't have the force to do it"? Don't have what force?

Whose to say what we should and should not tolerate? If you don't like something a company is doing, tell them about it, and tell your neighbors, and don't buy from them. But I can tolerate what China is doing just fine. Don't speak for me, and what I should and should not tolerate.

If you want to improve basic services and capacities throughout the world, you are welcome to do so. So is any company, or any other person in this world, for that matter. But, It is not something that should be forced, under any circumstances. Forcing one person to work for the benefit of another person is slavery, plain and simple.
post #149 of 172
Not sure if troll...Read through this thread dude, and tell me the basic concept of viability of U.S. manufacturing isn't stigmatized. It's moreso in the business sector. And what I mean is we don't have the force - public support, government support, business support, to make the necessary changes to the U.S. manufacturing landscape to make it viable.

Also...let me ask you...seriously. You have some form of serious predisposition to Chinese manufacturing. Am I right? You seem full of NOTHING but attempts at counter point and contradiction. It's pretty transparent, and frankly some of it is off.

Anyway, I wouldn't want to enslave you by opposing working conditions in 3rd world countries.
Edited by pfunkmort - 1/27/12 at 4:13pm
 
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post #150 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfunkmort View Post

Not sure if troll...Read through this thread dude, and tell me the basic concept of viability of U.S. manufacturing isn't stigmatized. It's moreso in the business sector. And what I mean is we don't have the force - public support, government support, business support, to institute the basic changes that are necessary to make the necessary changes to the U.S. manufacturing landscape to make it viable.
Also...let me ask you...seriously. You have some form of serious predisposition to Chinese manufacturing. Am I right? You seem full of NOTHING but attempts at counter point and contradiction. It's pretty transparent, and frankly some of it is off.
Anyway, I wouldn't want to enslave you by opposing working conditions in 3rd world countries.
No, no predisposition to Chinese manufacturing. I am just a person that works by logic. It is illogical for a company to bring manufacturing to the US in MOST cases. There are some companies that have very legitimate and practical reason for manufacturing in the US, and I even work for one of them. So, I'm not sure what transparency you are looking through, but it's the wrong one. Also, I am welcome to hearing what I've said that you believe is "off".

Please do tell us more about what basic changes need to be made to make it viable to manufacture in the US. In my opinion, we need a good deal of deregulation and take away the minimum wage, and it would be viable for any company again. But as long as people here demand having minimum wages and don't mind the government stepping all over companies with hoards of regulations, they can expect to see the majority of our manufacturing jobs go overseas. Companies will manufacture where it is cheapest, and right now, that is overseas. If you want manufacturing in the US, you have to make it cheaper to manufacture in the US. That's the bottom line...
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