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[Xbit]: Intel Core i7-3820 vs. Core i7-2700K and Core i7-3930K - Page 5

post #41 of 86
The article is wrong in repeatedly asserting that the i7-3820 is based off the eight core die. They perhaps should have done a little research before repeating that so often. At 294 mm^2 and 1.17 billion transistors, the four core die is quite reasonable in size, about the size of Lynnfield.

Another thing is that all these i7-3820 reviews are using C1 stepping engineering samples. Presumably the retail i7-3820s will be C2. Perhaps there will be some improvements?
post #42 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neroh View Post

The conclusion is weirdly negative. 2011 has more pcie lanes as well as pcie3 support and quad channel memory. A 3820 costs less than a 2700k and performs similarly. The only downside is power consumption.
Considering this eliminates the barrier for entry (huge cost for a CPU) that existed previously, this seems to be an awesome cpu for those that want lga 2011 features. Am I missing something or what


Exactly! People can invest their money on a better platform right now, and get a 22nm six core CPU next year or in two years. It's the best investment if you want your platform to last longer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gplnpsb View Post

The article is wrong in repeatedly asserting that the i7-3820 is based off the eight core die. They perhaps should have done a little research before repeating that so often. At 294 mm^2 and 1.17 billion transistors, the four core die is quite reasonable in size, about the size of Lynnfield.
Another thing is that all these i7-3820 reviews are using C1 stepping engineering samples. Presumably the retail i7-3820s will be C2. Perhaps there will be some improvements?


Yes, they should at least have read Anand's review which came out last year. I mean, how can they write this:
Quote:
Moreover, when we take a closer look at Core i7-3820, we uncover a few other drawbacks. Since this processor is based on Sandy Bridge-E design, it uses the same exact semiconductor die as Core i7-3960X or Core i7-3930K. In other words, it is an original eight-core die with 2.3 billion transistors and 435 mm2 size. Of course, it is not surprising at all that the calculated TDP for this quad-core LGA 2011 processor, which half of cores and part of its cache-memory disabled in the semiconductor die is set at 130 W instead of 95 W, as we see by its LGA 1155 counterparts. In other words, Core i7-3820 is not as energy-efficient as Core i7-2500K or Core i7-2600K.

This is completely false! Furthermore, Anand's tests even show that it uses more or less the same power as the 2600k, as it should.

The 130w reasoning they make is complete crap also. The Sandy Bridge-EP for the workstation has a 150w TDP - the full eight cores active, given that the Sandy Bridge-E design currently being sold in the form of the Core i7 3930K and 3960X has two cores disabled, which only further discredits their ignorant reasoning.


Note: your comment about the C1 stepping might not be accurate. CPU-Z readings of the Core i7 3820 do not show the CPU revision right now, so nobody knows if these samples are already the C2, or, since this is a new die, if there was ever a C1 - with the VT-d bug - so to speak.
Edited by tpi2007 - 1/29/12 at 2:43pm
 
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post #43 of 86
Intel does list it as 130W though.
Quad channel memory required, limited multiplier and no Quicksync/iGPU? No thank you.
edit, it doesn't actually run near 130W. and quad-channel memory is the only benefit here.
Edited by PoopaScoopa - 1/29/12 at 6:07pm
post #44 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

...
Note: your comment about the C1 stepping might not be accurate. CPU-Z readings of the Core i7 3820 do not show the CPU revision right now, so nobody knows if these samples are already the C2, or, since this is a new die, if there was ever a C1 - with the VT-d bug - so to speak.

Ah, this is true that CPU-Z isn't identifying the C1 or C2 stepping right now. You may be correct but I'm happy to explain my logic. The quad-core and two dual-core dies used for mainstream sandy bridge all use the same CPUID code: 206A7. That last digit is shown in the Stepping field of CPU-Z as stepping 7. Who knows if they did all seven respins for each of the three dies, but it seems unlikely. More likely they did the respins for one or two of them each time, but kept the CPUID nomenclature consistent. Presumably the mass production stepping 7 had all the big fixes corresponding to that stepping incorporated into all three dies. Sandy Bride was designed with slice lines in mind, so creating new dies from a new stepping is probably relatively simple, especially compared to Nehalem. (i.e. they just cut at the lines in their software, maybe make a few adjustments for speed path issues, and spend the five million and make the masks).

Sandy Bridge-E launched at stepping 6, or the C1 revision. The cpuid for the retail six core chips and for the es 3820s is 206D6. The 3820 ES's have been floating around for while, so I would surmise that their four core die was created at around the same time as the C1 six core die, but Intel decided it wasn't worthwhile to do a production run of the C1 four core die due to the VT-d bug. I would be very surprised if the retail i7-3820s are listed as anything but "Stepping 7" in CPU-Z when they come out, as that's what the CPU-Z shots of the C2 3930Ks are showing. I don't think it's any coincidence that the 3820s are coming out around the same time as the C2 stepping six core chips.

I should note that it is possible that the 206D7 stepping for the 3820 will be called something other than C2, but I think it will still have the exact same bug fixes as the C2 eight core die. I say this because the 206A7 steppings for the dual core Sandy Bridge dies are J1 and Q0. Nonetheless the 206A7 CPUID, and their errata, are the same as the D2 stepping four core die. (as far as i know)

Sorry for rambling =P
post #45 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoopaScoopa View Post

Intel does list it as 130W though.
Quad channel memory required, locked multiplier and no Quicksync or iGPU @ 130W? No thank you.

Listing a CPUs TDP is useless. The Celeron Dual Core E3200, 2.4 Ghz, 1 MB of L2 cache, 800 Mhz FSB has the same 65w TDP as the Core 2 Duo E8600, 3.33 Ghz, 6 Mb of L2 cache, 1333 Mhz FSB. Do you really think the Celeron uses the same amount of power as the Core 2 Duo ? The same can be said for the Core 2 Quad Q8200 versus the Core 2 Quad Q9650. 95w for both, meaningless otherwise. Intel just does it because it's easier to standardize cooler requirements, case requirements, etc for their partners and to also make room for variations between each CPU. Go look at how Intel did it in their Pentium 4 478 days. Each CPU speed has its own TDP.

The Core i7 920 also has the same 130w as the Core i7 965 Extreme Edition. They do not use the same amount of power at their respecitve clockspeeds, do they ?

What do you mean Quad Channel required ? You can use single channel, dual channel or triple channel if you like. You don't have to use the four channels.

There is no Quicksync because there is no IGPU. Quicksync makes use of the processing units in the GPU, so if you don't have the GPU you can't have QuickSync. Why would you need QuickSync or an integtrated GPU in an enthusiast platform ?

AMD already has the same funcionality in their new HD 7000 series, and Nvidia will probably have the same with Kepler. Besides, for anyone using a Z68 platform, using Quicksync along with a discrete GPU is a suboptimal experience. That whole Lucid Logix affair is a mess and it impacts gaming performance. Intel should allow you to use QuickSync without a monitor attached to the integrated GPUs output, that is, use the feature just as you can use MMX, SSE, AVX, etc.


Locked multiplier ? Did you even read the article ? It's partially unlocked up to 43x and on top of that you can adjust the BCLK strap. You can use 100 Mhz, 125, 166 and 250 Mhz, so you can reach overclocks similar to those of Sandy Bridge. Anand already said that in his review last year. He was able to get his sample stable at 4.75 Ghz.
Edited by tpi2007 - 1/29/12 at 3:20pm
 
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post #46 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neroh View Post

The conclusion is weirdly negative. 2011 has more pcie lanes as well as pcie3 support and quad channel memory. A 3820 costs less than a 2700k and performs similarly. The only downside is power consumption.
Considering this eliminates the barrier for entry (huge cost for a CPU) that existed previously, this seems to be an awesome cpu for those that want lga 2011 features. Am I missing something or what

why would anyone want it with a 4-core CPU? Those features will never be used. Just a waste of money
post #47 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by gplnpsb View Post

Ah, this is true that CPU-Z isn't identifying the C1 or C2 stepping right now. You may be correct but I'm happy to explain my logic. The quad-core and two dual-core dies used for mainstream sandy bridge all use the same CPUID code: 206A7. That last digit is shown in the Stepping field of CPU-Z as stepping 7. Who knows if they did all seven respins for each of the three dies, but it seems unlikely. More likely they did the respins for one or two of them each time, but kept the CPUID nomenclature consistent. Presumably the mass production stepping 7 had all the big fixes corresponding to that stepping incorporated into all three dies. Sandy Bride was designed with slice lines in mind, so creating new dies from a new stepping is probably relatively simple, especially compared to Nehalem. (i.e. they just cut at the lines in their software, maybe make a few adjustments for speed path issues, and spend the five million and make the masks).
Sandy Bridge-E launched at stepping 6, or the C1 revision. The cpuid for the retail six core chips and for the es 3820s is 206D6. The 3820 ES's have been floating around for while, so I would surmise that their four core die was created at around the same time as the C1 six core die, but Intel decided it wasn't worthwhile to do a production run of the C1 four core die due to the VT-d bug. I would be very surprised if the retail i7-3820s are listed as anything but "Stepping 7" in CPU-Z when they come out, as that's what the CPU-Z shots of the C2 3930Ks are showing. I don't think it's any coincidence that the 3820s are coming out around the same time as the C2 stepping six core chips.
I should note that it is possible that the 206D7 stepping for the 3820 will be called something other than C2, but I think it will still have the exact same bug fixes as the C2 eight core die. I say this because the 206A7 steppings for the dual core Sandy Bridge dies are J1 and Q0. Nonetheless the 206A7 CPUID, and their errata, are the same as the D2 stepping four core die. (as far as i know)
Sorry for rambling =P

You obviously know more about the subject than I do; it makes sense. Rep+ The fact the Core i7 3820 is coming out at the same time as the C2 3930K and 3960X makes perfect sense too.

I just noticed that CPU-Z does not show VT-d support on the Core i7 3820 though, although I don't know if we can say for sure that the reviewed CPUs are based off from the same design that has the bug as the six core parts, it could also be related to the Bios, as the X79 motherboards will require a new Bios to handle the new stepping properly, maybe they are all handling the CPUs right now as not having VT-d because that is in accordance with the current Core i7 3930K and 3960X C1s being sold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ha-Nocri View Post

why would anyone want it with a 4-core CPU? Those features will never be used. Just a waste of money

Keep telling yourself that. Bill Gates once said something similar too.

You can already see a difference with Crossfire HD 7970 series, now imagine Nvidia's Kepler and AMD's answer with their improved series, and then imagine in a year and a half from now AMD's and Nvidia's updated GPUs, even a bit more powerful. And with the advent of new consoles, you are bound to see a big leap in game performance potential on the PC.

Unless you buy a new PC every year, going socket 2011 makes the most sense if you want it to last. Look at people still with their X58 platforms. It's holding well, and the triple channel memory controller is now still holding up versus the improved dual channel Sandy Bridge memory controller. So who says more memory channels don't help in the long run ? Besides, if you are going to be upgrading to 16 GB in the future, having 4 channels makes the most out of the four sticks, and if you buy a higher end X79 motherboard you get to have 8 slots, meaning you get much better spacing between sticks meaning you can manage without fan coolers for the RAM sticks.

Besides, this is the perfect entry level point for the 2011 platform, meaning in a year or two you can just upgrade the CPU, to a 22nm Ivy Bridge-E, 6 core or possibly even 8 core.
Edited by tpi2007 - 1/29/12 at 4:10pm
 
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post #48 of 86
I'm really tempted to pick up a 3820 and P9X79 Pro. Then I could add in another GPU and soundcard without having to worry about PCIE lanes.
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post #49 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

handle the new stepping properly, maybe they are all handling the CPUs right now as not having VT-d because that is in accordance with the current Core i7 3930K and 3960X C1s being sold.
Keep telling yourself that. Bill Gates once said something similar too.
You can already see a difference with Crossfire HD 7970 series, now imagine Nvidia's Kepler and AMD's answer with their improved series, and then imagine in a year and a half from now AMD's and Nvidia's updated GPUs, even a bit more powerful. And with the advent of new consoles, you are bound to see a big leap in game performance potential on the PC.
Unless you buy a new PC every year, going socket 2011 makes the most sense if you want it to last. Look at people still with their X58 platforms. It's holding well, and the triple channel memory controller is now still holding up versus the improved dual channel Sandy Bridge memory controller. So who says more memory channels don't help in the long run ? Besides, if you are going to be upgrading to 16 GB in the future, having 4 channels makes the most out of the four sticks, and if you buy a higher end X79 motherboard you get to have 8 slots, meaning you get much better spacing between sticks meaning you can manage without fan coolers for the RAM sticks.
huh? that is about PCIe 3.0 that other platforms [will] have too. And even PCIe 3.0 makes no difference for even 7970 crossFire.

And quad-channel memory for a quad-core? big waste of money and resources...
post #50 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ha-Nocri View Post

why would anyone want it with a 4-core CPU? Those features will never be used. Just a waste of money

I could use one right now, at this very second. I don't do encoding or need a monster hexa-core SB-E processor, but I would like to run 120hz surround without resorting to an NF200 chip to get enough GPU ponies on my board. It would be a side-step from my 2500k, but at the same time the CPU is cheap enough compared to the six core chips that I could justify slapping IB-E in there when it eventually comes out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

You can already see a difference with Crossfire HD 7970 series, now imagine Nvidia's Kepler and AMD's answer with their improved series, and then imagine in a year and a half from now AMD's and Nvidia's updated GPUs, even a bit more powerful. And with the advent of new consoles, you are bound to see a big leap in game performance potential on the PC.
Unless you buy a new PC every year, going socket 2011 makes the most sense if you want it to last. Look at people still with their X58 platforms. It's holding well, and the triple channel memory controller is now still holding up versus the improved dual channel Sandy Bridge memory controller. So who says more memory channels don't help in the long run ? Besides, if you are going to be upgrading to 16 GB in the future, having 4 channels makes the most out of the four sticks, and if you buy a higher end X79 motherboard you get to have 8 slots, meaning you get much better spacing between sticks meaning you can manage without fan coolers for the RAM sticks.

This is exactly why I want it, my X58 setup lasted a long time and I really wish I had kept it to this day but financial issues changed my mind on that one. Also, excellent use of Unobtainium in your sig rig thumb.gif
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