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[HH] 7950 OC vs 7970 OC vs 580 OC vs 6970 OC - Page 7  

post #61 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by airisom2 View Post

Given that more variable framerates generally promote microstuttering, then the 580 sli has less microstuttering than the 6990 as shown in the pics below:
281
281
Source(Excellent read btw)
So, the sli 580 is better than the 6990 by the numbers and the eyes.
Also, just because you have a sli/cf setup doesn't mean that microstuttering will be inevitable. It depends on the gpu, drivers, game played (major role), game settings, resolution, etc. I also read somewhere that if you setup a RAMDisk, you will see close to no microstuttering at all on nearly all graphics cards, multi-gpu or not. Like brettjv said, with cf setups you might get the high numbers, but you also get the erratic frame behavior that comes with it. This may reduce gameplay experience, but, like I said before, there are a lot of variables to take into consideration for that to happen.
There's a reason why sli scaling isn't as good as cf, and that's because they are incorporating something called frame metering in order to make gameplay experience smoother:
Quote:
In fact, in a bit of a shocking revelation, Petersen told us Nvidia has "lots of hardware" in its GPUs aimed at trying to fix multi-GPU stuttering. The basic technology, known as frame metering, dynamically tracks the average interval between frames. Those frames that show up "early" are delayed slightly—in other words, the GPU doesn't flip to a new buffer immediately—in order to ensure a more even pace of frames presented for display. The lengths of those delays are adapted depending on the frame rate at any particular time. Petersen told us this frame-metering capability has been present in Nvidia's GPUs since at least the G80 generation, if not earlier. (He offered to find out exactly when it was added, but we haven't heard back yet.)
(came from source above) I hope this clarifies some stuff. If I'm wrong about something please say so because I won't be telling people false information tongue.gif

Thanks for pointing this out. I didn't realize micro-stuttering was such a problem for CF setups. Looks like I'll be skipping the HD7970s for Kepler.



While SLI scaling isn't as high as CF, my GTX 580 SLI setup will still easily outperform HD6970 CF/HD6990. thumb.gif
Edited by Clairvoyant129 - 2/2/12 at 8:46pm
 
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post #62 of 86
Yeah, now that I come to think about it, I haven't had ANY micro-stutter issues with my 580's so far. I've also read around here that the CF 7970's stutter a lot. Guess I'll just have to wait on Kepler...
post #63 of 86
This thread is hilarious.
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post #64 of 86
I forgot was it was about after the 1st set of graphs lol.
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post #65 of 86
7950 looks like a good buy
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post #66 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Yeah, now that I come to think about it, I haven't had ANY micro-stutter issues with my 580's so far.

Me either. They feel very smooth, even at triple monitor resolution during games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by djriful View Post

lol, power consumption is important due to heat. The more power it uses the hotter it gets and the more cooling it needs.

Not to mention it heats up the room its in quite a bit. I have a feeling these SLI 580's aren't going to be much fun during the summer.
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post #67 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjv View Post

Hell, I'll put my SLI470's up against a 6990, everyone at their max OC's on air, running DX11 games or benchies at 1920 resolution or below ...
I shall enjoy the dumb-founded look on the 6990 owners face as they just barely edge me out tongue.gif
For example, let's see a 6990 do any serious damage to my 3dMark11 graphics score: http://3dmark.com/3dm11/2597520
Hmm, didn't realize anyone could actually play 3DMark... Care to bench some real games, like BF3? Oh that's right, the 580SLI gets destroyed in that. I wouldn't even want to see how bad the 470SLI does in it.... Synthetic benchmarks are nice for stability testing your OCs, but completely useless when it comes to performance comparisons. Same goes for comparing games that are clearly AMD or Nvidia developed games and do poorly outside their intended brand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjv View Post

Hardware-wise, the two setups are equally similar. The only difference being that the 6990 has a special overclocking switch that makes the clocks match that of the two separate cards. Although I suppose it could also be argued that the VRM's on the 6990 are closer to the quality of the separate cards as well wink.gif
It would be completely unfair to try and use a 590 as an example of what two 580s are capable of. I don't know why this concept is so difficult for some people to understand... The fewer VRMs on the 590 won't even let you hit 580 stock clocks, much less OC it higher. The 6990 on the other hand, comes stock from the factory at 880Mhz and can easily overclock to 1Ghz+. I shouldn't still have to explain this to anyone at this point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjv View Post

At the risk of sounding totally five years ago ... oh ... SNAP!
I would also bet that if the frametimes were analyzed, the 580SLI would prove to have far less microstutter than the 6990. AMD's awesome multi-gpu scaling is not a result of superior hardware, it's a result of driver programming that doesn't bother attempting to limit microstutter like the Forceware does wink.gif
Unfortunately, you're completely wrong. If you had read the end of the review, you'll notice that they point out that it's impossible to measure Nvidia's micro-stutter at this point in time. Nvidia has an onboard "frame metering" device that makes it impossible to measure micro-stutter with frame-time analysis as it only measures the image being output to the DirectX API. Therefore, the Nvidia measurements are completely useless at this point until Nvidia releases an API for us to hook into and read the actual frame delays in the future, as promised.
Quote:
Now, take note of the implications here. Because the metering delay is presumably inserted between T_render and T_display, Fraps would miss it entirely. That means all of our SLI data on the preceding pages might not track with how frames are presented to the user. Rather than perceive an alternating series of long and short frame times, the user would see a more even flow of frames at an average latency between the two.

To cushion jitter, Nvidia is increasing the amount of lag in the graphics subsystem as it inserts that delay between the completion of the rendered frame and its exposure to the display. In most cases, we're talking about tens of milliseconds or less; that sort of contribution to lag probably isn't perceptible. Still, this is an interesting and previously hidden trade-off in SLI systems that gamers will want to consider.



It's fine having a personal preference for a brand. But let's not bring ignorance and blind loyalty into the forums or to be used as facts as to why people should pick one brand or the other. I would expect people on an overclocking site to pick the better product, regardless of the name attached to it. I'm constantly switching back and forth between brands because I don't care what lettering is stamped on the side of the box.
Edited by PoopaScoopa - 2/2/12 at 11:22pm
post #68 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoopaScoopa View Post

Hmm, didn't realize anyone could actually play 3DMark... Care to bench some real games, like BF3? Oh that's right, the 580SLI gets destroyed in that. I wouldn't even want to see how bad the 470SLI does in it.... Synthetic benchmarks are nice for stability testing your OCs, but completely useless when it comes to performance comparisons. Same goes for comparing games that are clearly AMD or Nvidia developed games and do poorly outside their intended brand.
It would be completely unfair to try and use a 590 as an example of what two 580s are capable of. I don't know why this concept is so difficult for some people to understand... The fewer VRMs on the 590 won't even let you hit 580 stock clocks, much less OC it higher. The 6990 on the other hand, comes stock from the factory at 880Mhz and can easily overclock to 1Ghz+. I shouldn't still have to explain this to anyone at this point.
Unfortunately, you're completely wrong. If you had read the end of the review, you'll notice that they point out that it's impossible to measure Nvidia's micro-stutter at this point in time. Nvidia has an onboard "frame metering" device that makes it impossible to measure micro-stutter with frame-time analysis as it only measure the image being output to the DirectX API. Therefore, the Nvidia measurements are completely useless at this point until Nvidia releases an API for us to hook into and read the actual frame delays in the future, as promised.
Quote:
Now, take note of the implications here. Because the metering delay is presumably inserted between T_render and T_display, Fraps would miss it entirely. That means all of our SLI data on the preceding pages might not track with how frames are presented to the user. Rather than perceive an alternating series of long and short frame times, the user would see a more even flow of frames at an average latency between the two.
To cushion jitter, Nvidia is increasing the amount of lag in the graphics subsystem as it inserts that delay between the completion of the rendered frame and its exposure to the display. In most cases, we're talking about tens of milliseconds or less; that sort of contribution to lag probably isn't perceptible. Still, this is an interesting and previously hidden trade-off in SLI systems that gamers will want to consider.
It's fine having a personal preference for a brand. But let's not bring ignorance and blind loyalty into the forums or to be used as facts as to why people should pick one brand or the other. I would expect people on an overclocking site to pick the better product, regardless of the name attached to it. I'm constantly switching back and forth between brands because I don't care what lettering is stamped on the side of the box.

Well said... well said. +rep
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post #69 of 86
Numbers added to your post for reference in my response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoopaScoopa View Post

1) Hmm, didn't realize anyone could actually play 3DMark... Care to bench some real games, like BF3? Oh that's right, the 580SLI gets destroyed in that. I wouldn't even want to see how bad the 470SLI does in it.... Synthetic benchmarks are nice for stability testing your OCs, but completely useless when it comes to performance comparisons. Same goes for comparing games that are clearly AMD or Nvidia developed games and do poorly outside their intended brand.
2) It would be completely unfair to try and use a 590 as an example of what two 580s are capable of. I don't know why this concept is so difficult for some people to understand... The fewer VRMs on the 590 won't even let you hit 580 stock clocks, much less OC it higher. The 6990 on the other hand, comes stock from the factory at 880Mhz and can easily overclock to 1Ghz+. I shouldn't still have to explain this to anyone at this point.
3) Unfortunately, you're completely wrong. If you had read the end of the review, you'll notice that they point out that it's impossible to measure Nvidia's micro-stutter at this point in time. Nvidia has an onboard "frame metering" device that makes it impossible to measure micro-stutter with frame-time analysis as it only measure the image being output to the DirectX API. Therefore, the Nvidia measurements are completely useless at this point until Nvidia releases an API for us to hook into and read the actual frame delays in the future, as promised.
Quote:
Now, take note of the implications here. Because the metering delay is presumably inserted between T_render and T_display, Fraps would miss it entirely. That means all of our SLI data on the preceding pages might not track with how frames are presented to the user. Rather than perceive an alternating series of long and short frame times, the user would see a more even flow of frames at an average latency between the two.
To cushion jitter, Nvidia is increasing the amount of lag in the graphics subsystem as it inserts that delay between the completion of the rendered frame and its exposure to the display. In most cases, we're talking about tens of milliseconds or less; that sort of contribution to lag probably isn't perceptible. Still, this is an interesting and previously hidden trade-off in SLI systems that gamers will want to consider.
4)It's fine having a personal preference for a brand. But let's not bring ignorance and blind loyalty into the forums or to be used as facts as to why people should pick one brand or the other. I would expect people on an overclocking site to pick the better product, regardless of the name attached to it. I'm constantly switching back and forth between brands because I don't care what lettering is stamped on the side of the box.

1) Do I care to bench real games? Sure, as long as we're playing 'you name a game, then I'll name a game'. That way you can pick an ATI-favoring game, and you'll win, then I'll name an nV favoring game, and I'll win. I'm curious, though ... what does that prove, exactly?

The fact that 3dMark11 wasn't developed *for* either company, and both gpu makers do EVERYTHING in their power to get their cards as fast as possible in it ... makes it actually a very reasonable measurement to use in my mind. That's kinda 'the idea' of 3dMark11. But you're free to disagree, it's just MHO.

Moving forward, I take it you're aware that a 6990 won't even score much better than my 470's in 3dMark11 (let alone SLI 580's), and that's why you're taking issue with it as measurement? I take it also you read the huge slew of benchies provided upthread that show that, in fact, SLI580's pretty well demolishes even an OC'd 6990?

I just have to ask, PS ... at what point do you acknowledge that your point that 6990 > 580SLI is not borne out by the facts, but rather, that the opposite appears to be the case? Just asking wink.gif

2) I said exactly what I meant re: the 590, and what I said was accurate. In terms of *functional hardware* apart from VRM's, the 590 is just as much 2x580 as a 6990 is 2x6970. Anyways, that's really not the point of this discussion, so let's drop it.

3) UNFORTUNATELY, if it's 'unknown', as you assert, then, by definition, it means you cannot logically categorically claim that I'm 'completely wrong'. You can only state that I *may* be incorrect. See how that logic works? wink.gif

I'd also remind everyone here that I went on record here on OCN back in April 2011, before 'the article' existed, saying that I believe that AMD/ATI achieves it's higher 'scaling' by throwing caution to the wind, as it were, when it comes to microstutter, and nVidia does not (except in common benchies like 3dMark, where they both do it).

Two articles have hence become known to me that bear out this suspicion, one of which was quoted above.

Further, even if it's 'unknown' what the exact effect of the post-rendering 'metering system' is with nV cards, the graphs themselves (in the above quoted article), using the data that is KNOWN (the frametimes, or perhaps more accurately, the 'time to render each frame'), CLEARLY shows that nV cards (or rather, the Forceware) are doing a much better job of producing evenly distributed timings when it comes to frame rendering.

I stipulate to you that the the COST of this evenly rendered output ... comes in the form of reduced scaling, because it means that one card is WAITING to do it's job (when needed) ... which the AMD cards ... are not doing.

AMD's lack of a mechanism of 'waiting' (and I'm talking waiting to RENDER, not waiting to DISPLAY ... which is the focus of the 'end of the article' that you're talking about) .. is why the AMD cards 'scale better', but results in increased likelihood of their frametimes having a more uneven distribution.

4) I agree, and I am FAR FAR from a nV fanboy. In fact, I prefer AMD if the truth is told. However, accuracy is important, and you were not being accurate when you stated that 6990's are as fast as SLI 580's.

And (not that you did this, but) any suggestion that AMD's on-average better 'scaling' than nV's is due to some 'hardware superiority' is going to be met with resistance from me, because I believe that all available evidence at this point in time suggests that AMD get's it's superior scaling through driver programming that entirely favors 'scaling' over 'evenly distributed frametimes' ... which means their cards are more likely to have microstutter.

You can point to unknown 'black boxes' like metering systems between the t_render and the t_display, but t_render IS still measurable ... and it shows that nV cards in two-card SLI render their frames at much more even intervals. This isn't by accident, and it's not w/o cost when it comes to scaling.
Edited by brettjv - 2/3/12 at 12:36am
    
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post #70 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerRanger View Post

I was under the impression nVidia's Surround is the answer to AMD's Eyefinity?

It is similar system and I think you are correct - its just that having to have one gfx card for every two monitors you have is not as comfortable solution as AMD implementation. Both have their advantages ofc. nVidia was a bit later to the party tho as it was focusing more on 3D than on surround while AMD was focusing more on Eyefinity than 3D.

Main quirk of the nvidia surround is that you need to have exactly the same monitor - while for AMD the only requirement is that the monitors you use need to be of the same resolution and orientation.
Kohver v.4
(25 items)
 
Kohver v.3
(21 items)
 
Soliton
(23 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel Core i7 3820 X79-UP4 Gigabyte 390X G1 Club3D 7870 Eyefinity 6 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
64 GB Barracuda 3 TB WD Green 3 TB Crucial M4 256 GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Crucial M4 64 GB Barracuda 4 TB Corsair LE 480HB Sythe big shuriken rev B 
CoolingCoolingCoolingOS
Nexxos 280mm radiator DC-LT Alphacool GPX 390M04 Windows 7 Pro 64 bit 
MonitorMonitorMonitorMonitor
DELL U2311H (x3) DELL U2312HM (x2) 9.7'' 2048x1536 (x3) IPAD3 retina Asus PB287Q 4K 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
CM Quickfire TK (red) Corsair AX-1200i Significantly modded Jupiter .. something alumi... Logitech G700s 
Mouse Pad
3M Ergonomic 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel Core i7 3820 X79-UP4 Gigabyte 390X G1 Club3D 7870 Eyefinity 6 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
64 GB Barracuda 3 TB WD Green 3 TB Crucial M4 256 GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Crucial M4 64 GB Barracuda 4 TB Sythe big shuriken rev B Windows 7 Pro 64 bit 
MonitorMonitorMonitorMonitor
DELL U2311H (x3) DELL U2312HM (x2) 9.7'' 2048x1536 (x3) IPAD3 retina Asus PB287Q 4K 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
CM Quickfire TK (red) Corsair AX-1200i Modded Sharkoon VS-3 Logitech G700s 
Mouse Pad
3M Ergonomic 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel Core i7 3820 X79-UP4 Sapphire 7950 FleX OC XFX 6770 Eyefinity 5 
GraphicsRAMHard DriveHard Drive
Club3D 7870 Eyefinity 6 64 GB Samsung 750 GB F3 Barracuda 3 TB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
WD Green 3 TB Crucial M4 256 GB Crucial M4 64 GB Barracuda 4 TB 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Custom loop Windows 7 Pro 64 bit DELL U2311H (x3) DELL U2312HM (x2) 
MonitorMonitorKeyboardPower
9.7'' 2048x1536 (x3) IPAD3 retina Asus PB287Q 4K CM Quickfire TK (red) Corsair AX-1200i 
CaseMouseMouse Pad
Modded Chieftec Smart WH-02B-B-OB Logitech G700s 3M Ergonomic 
  hide details  
Kohver v.4
(25 items)
 
Kohver v.3
(21 items)
 
Soliton
(23 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel Core i7 3820 X79-UP4 Gigabyte 390X G1 Club3D 7870 Eyefinity 6 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
64 GB Barracuda 3 TB WD Green 3 TB Crucial M4 256 GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Crucial M4 64 GB Barracuda 4 TB Corsair LE 480HB Sythe big shuriken rev B 
CoolingCoolingCoolingOS
Nexxos 280mm radiator DC-LT Alphacool GPX 390M04 Windows 7 Pro 64 bit 
MonitorMonitorMonitorMonitor
DELL U2311H (x3) DELL U2312HM (x2) 9.7'' 2048x1536 (x3) IPAD3 retina Asus PB287Q 4K 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
CM Quickfire TK (red) Corsair AX-1200i Significantly modded Jupiter .. something alumi... Logitech G700s 
Mouse Pad
3M Ergonomic 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel Core i7 3820 X79-UP4 Gigabyte 390X G1 Club3D 7870 Eyefinity 6 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
64 GB Barracuda 3 TB WD Green 3 TB Crucial M4 256 GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Crucial M4 64 GB Barracuda 4 TB Sythe big shuriken rev B Windows 7 Pro 64 bit 
MonitorMonitorMonitorMonitor
DELL U2311H (x3) DELL U2312HM (x2) 9.7'' 2048x1536 (x3) IPAD3 retina Asus PB287Q 4K 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
CM Quickfire TK (red) Corsair AX-1200i Modded Sharkoon VS-3 Logitech G700s 
Mouse Pad
3M Ergonomic 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel Core i7 3820 X79-UP4 Sapphire 7950 FleX OC XFX 6770 Eyefinity 5 
GraphicsRAMHard DriveHard Drive
Club3D 7870 Eyefinity 6 64 GB Samsung 750 GB F3 Barracuda 3 TB 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
WD Green 3 TB Crucial M4 256 GB Crucial M4 64 GB Barracuda 4 TB 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Custom loop Windows 7 Pro 64 bit DELL U2311H (x3) DELL U2312HM (x2) 
MonitorMonitorKeyboardPower
9.7'' 2048x1536 (x3) IPAD3 retina Asus PB287Q 4K CM Quickfire TK (red) Corsair AX-1200i 
CaseMouseMouse Pad
Modded Chieftec Smart WH-02B-B-OB Logitech G700s 3M Ergonomic 
  hide details  
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