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[El Reg] 40,000 Apple fanbois demand ethical iPhone 5 - Page 5

post #41 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikersSU View Post

That is a sad story. Unfortunately, it's all too common in countries that depend heavily on manufatcuring. China doesn't exactly have OSHA or civil rights for that matter. As long as the labor's cheap and the product turns a profit, companies INCLUDING APPLE will do little to change that. Maybe I'm just a touch too cynical but that's what experience dictates.
It's definitely not you that's cynical, buddy. You're one who has realized how likely it is that things won't change because of this due to companies out there to ensure maximum profit. That's the cynical thing right there.
 
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post #42 of 141
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Originally Posted by SgtSpike View Post

Again, no one is being forced to work in those factories. And if those poor working conditions are made better, it means the parts will cost more to manufacture, which means companies will look elsewhere, and those factory workers will have no jobs at all. I'd rather have a crappy job (or at least the option to get a crappy job) than no job at all.

I don't agree with the first bit. True no one is "forced" to work in these factories the same way as no one is "forced" to feed their family, or work the streets to survive. People end up in situations where there is no real choice be it by accident or (someone else's) design. It may well be that for a majority of the workers in this plant their only hope of survival is to work for Foxconn et al. You talk about not judging their working conditions by our standards, don't go and judge their life options by our standards too.

As for the jobs going elsewhere, if Apple, for example, were to insist that the workers were paid more then they wouldn't be taking their buisiness elsewhere as it would be their idea. If, however, China were to increase the minimum wage then yes, there is a possibility that the jobs would go elsewhere, however I'm not too sure of that. There is a lot more to locating the plants in China than the wages; supply of raw materials, particularly rare earths, shipping distances to various markets, availability of labour and local economy (taxes, import / export rates) also pay a large part. It would not be too hard for the Chinese government to raise the wages and still make it financially beneficial to keep production in China if they really wanted to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtSpike View Post

Exactly. It's RELATIVE standards of living. You can't compare people working in China to people working in the US - at least, not yet. They are still going through their own industrial revolution, along with the growing pains associated with it. Chinese workers in these factories have it RELATIVELY good compared to other Chinese people. They have it RELATIVELY crappy compared to US people, but that's not really relevant.

So because they are used to a worse standard of living it is OK? By that logic we shouldn't care about third world hunger as they are not used to getting much food, or child mortality as that is how it has always been. Yes they are developing, but it is not the same as when the West went through the industrial revolution, we were pushing to improve all the time. Right now it suits us to keep them in the same condition that they are at the moment. We are perpetuating the low standards of living, and they will not push through that if we continue.

I believe that we should take the responsibility, if not to help them, then at least not to hold them back. However that is easy to say. I still want my 7950 for $350, something which can't happen without the status quo
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post #43 of 141
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Originally Posted by GingerJohn View Post


So because they are used to a worse standard of living it is OK? By that logic we shouldn't care about third world hunger as they are not used to getting much food, or child mortality as that is how it has always been. Yes they are developing, but it is not the same as when the West went through the industrial revolution, we were pushing to improve all the time. Right now it suits us to keep them in the same condition that they are at the moment. We are perpetuating the low standards of living, and they will not push through that if we continue.
I believe that we should take the responsibility, if not to help them, then at least not to hold them back. However that is easy to say. I still want my 7950 for $350, something which can't happen without the status quo

Sorry to say it but there will always be, and there has to be winners and losers for a global economy to work. If your try to make everyone happy we all end up suffering.
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post #44 of 141
The most ethical thing I have done lately is buy the Galaxy Nexus....I like to think that 1 less iphone = 1 worker's life spared.

Next year I am even thinking of doing the same....I could be consisdered a saint to some.
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post #45 of 141
40,000 fan boys better prepare for a price jump if they get their wish.

On a more serious note, it would be nice to see Apple actually acknowledge the abuses in their production system.
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post #46 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by strap624 View Post

Sorry to say it but there will always be, and there has to be winners and losers for a global economy to work. If your try to make everyone happy we all end up suffering.

Ah, don't we all love the kind of people that go like "that's how it is, sorry.".

Have you ever considered that if some people win and some people lose so obviously and horribly, that's a sign that the global economy is not working?
post #47 of 141
At the very least though, its good that people actually care about whats going on and not just about the next iphone.
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post #48 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spade616 View Post

At the very least though, its good that people actually care about whats going on and not just about the next iphone.

These people wont hesitate to buy an iphone 5 even if Apple comes out and says that they are now using even more dangerous chemicals at their factories. They just realize that it would be stylish of Apple to come out and say, "oh, we care so much about our 50 cent per day laborers that we will no longer subject them to n-hexane. We will, however, switch over to xylene and silane."

And they're right.
    
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post #49 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerJohn View Post

I don't agree with the first bit. True no one is "forced" to work in these factories the same way as no one is "forced" to feed their family, or work the streets to survive. People end up in situations where there is no real choice be it by accident or (someone else's) design. It may well be that for a majority of the workers in this plant their only hope of survival is to work for Foxconn et al. You talk about not judging their working conditions by our standards, don't go and judge their life options by our standards too.
You're pretty much repeating what I said. "A crappy job is better than no job at all." Sounds like we both agree there.
Quote:
As for the jobs going elsewhere, if Apple, for example, were to insist that the workers were paid more then they wouldn't be taking their buisiness elsewhere as it would be their idea. If, however, China were to increase the minimum wage then yes, there is a possibility that the jobs would go elsewhere, however I'm not too sure of that. There is a lot more to locating the plants in China than the wages; supply of raw materials, particularly rare earths, shipping distances to various markets, availability of labour and local economy (taxes, import / export rates) also pay a large part. It would not be too hard for the Chinese government to raise the wages and still make it financially beneficial to keep production in China if they really wanted to.
Yes, granted, if Apple forced their suppliers to pay their workers more (and in turn, paid said suppliers more), I'm sure those suppliers and workers wouldn't have a problem with it. But, if the company, workers, or state decided to hike up prices without Apple's consent, Apple could just as easily turn to Korea, or some other electronics manufacturing powerhouse to get the job done. Though, there's probably not much in the way of factories sizable enough to fulfill all of Apple's needs.

I'm not sure how you can say that it wouldn't be hard to raise the wages and still make it financially beneficial though. How do you know that Apple isn't just a couple pennies an hour away from switching to Korea to lower costs? Suppliers will certainly milk as much money out of Apple as they can for producing their parts, right up to the point of Apple leaving for a different supplier. That's what any competitive company would do. So I'm not sure that there's any more milk to squeeze, and I don't think you are either. There's no reason we can't speculate on the matter, but you're stating it as fact, when I don't think there is any evidence to justify it.
Quote:
So because they are used to a worse standard of living it is OK? By that logic we shouldn't care about third world hunger as they are not used to getting much food, or child mortality as that is how it has always been. Yes they are developing, but it is not the same as when the West went through the industrial revolution, we were pushing to improve all the time. Right now it suits us to keep them in the same condition that they are at the moment. We are perpetuating the low standards of living, and they will not push through that if we continue.
You're still acting like they don't have a choice. It isn't up to us what they make of their lives. It is up to them.

That aside, we are perpetuating HIGH standards of living, compared to many of their other options.

Also, remember this: The more demand there is for factory labor, the more quickly the standards of living will increase. Chinese laborers are in high demand, as is evidenced by wage increases over the recent years. See the link below for an example. So in that sense, I bet the Chinese are very thankful for the US and other more developed countries having such high demand for their labor, because it is quickly increasing the prices at which they can supply said labor and still have a job.

http://www.smbworldasia.com/en/system/files/cfo/China_vs_other_LCCS_1.jpg
Quote:
I believe that we should take the responsibility, if not to help them, then at least not to hold them back. However that is easy to say. I still want my 7950 for $350, something which can't happen without the status quo
I think it is noble of people to want to help. I want to help too. But I don't think imposing artificial floors on wages is the way to do it. If you want to help, then donate your monies towards whoever you think deserves it most. And work on becoming wealthy, because then you can make more of a difference.
post #50 of 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus View Post

These people wont hesitate to buy an iphone 5 even if Apple comes out and says that they are now using even more dangerous chemicals at their factories. They just realize that it would be stylish of Apple to come out and say, "oh, we care so much about our 50 cent per day laborers that we will no longer subject them to n-hexane. We will, however, switch over to xylene and silane."
And they're right.

Which of those three Hydrocarbons is the worst for you?
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