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[SemiAccurate] Physics hardware makes Kepler/GK104 fast - Page 15

post #141 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by dantoddd View Post

These guys are talking about generic physics here. Every computer game uses physics to one degree or the other. Nvidia is saying thier cards have a part dedicated to physics that is optimized for rendering in game physics. As it turns if physics is what is bottlenecking your GPU performance the new nvdia cards will show considerably better performance. this is a good thing. I'd imagine games like total war will perform much better in these cards

This doesn't make sense though.... NVIDIA would have to be intercepting the physics calls from the engine or the other middleware (i.e. Havok). I don't see this happening.
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post #142 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

This doesn't make sense though.... NVIDIA would have to be intercepting the physics calls from the engine or the other middleware (i.e. Havok). I don't see this happening.

Why not? They'll have to patch games one by one. This will be kind of unfair for smaller studios though
post #143 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by dantoddd View Post

Why not? They'll have to patch games one by one. This will be kind of unfair for smaller studios though

It would require a rewrite of the entire physic implementation.... Why would game companies choose to undertake a massive rewrite/revalidation of already released games to support one company's one card? There is no profit in that. This won't drastically increase sales especially sine the majority of game sales are in the first few months.

The existing PhysX middleware only handles clothes, debris, and particle physics... it does not handle all physics so that would have to be rewritten.
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post #144 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by dantoddd View Post

Why is everyone talking about Physx, this not about physx. you can't compare physx experience between nvidia & AMD because when you disable physx in a game it looks very different. That's like comparing an AMD card running with AA off to a nvidia card running with AA on.
These guys are talking about generic physics here. Every computer game uses physics to one degree or the other. Nvidia is saying thier cards have a part dedicated to physics that is optimized for rendering in game physics. As it turns if physics is what is bottlenecking your GPU performance the new nvdia cards will show considerably better performance. this is a good thing. I'd imagine games like total war will perform much better in these cards

It wouldn't just be for any physics, it would only be for GPU physics. I guess this could be dedicated hardware for any GPU-based physics, but right now that would pretty much just be PhysX. Physics engines like Havok are purely CPU-based. GPU-based physics are alright I guess, but they're like graphics, only important for visuals, GPU-based physics cannot affect gameplay physics objects like the player or things the player can interact with. I really don't see the point to this, seems like an unnecessary waste of GPU die space, unless that hardware can be used for things other than GPU-based physics.

I guess my point is, yes this could be for "generic physics", but only if it's GPU-based effects, so that won't help in any situation except PhysX at the moment.
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post #145 of 204
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

It wouldn't just be for any physics, it would only be for GPU physics. I guess this could be dedicated hardware for any GPU-based physics, but right now that would pretty much just be PhysX. Physics engines like Havok are purely CPU-based. GPU-based physics are alright I guess, but they're like graphics, only important for visuals, GPU-based physics cannot affect gameplay physics objects like the player or things the player can interact with. I really don't see the point to this, seems like an unnecessary waste of GPU die space, unless that hardware can be used for things other than GPU-based physics.
I guess my point is, yes this could be for "generic physics", but only if it's GPU-based effects, so that won't help in any situation except PhysX at the moment.

This is what Charlie has to say about it:
Quote:
Nvidia’s Kepler/GK104 chip has an interesting secret, a claimed Ageia PhysX hardware block that really isn’t. If you were wondering why Nvidia has been beating the dead horse called PhysX for so long, now you know, but it only gets more interesting from there.

Sources tell SemiAccurate that the ‘big secret’ lurking in the Kepler chips are optimisations for physics calculations. Some are calling this PhysX block a dedicated chunk of hardware, but more sources have been saying that it is simply shaders, optimisations, and likely a dedicated few new ops. In short, marketing may say it is, but under the heat spreader, it is simply shaders and optimisations.
post #146 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirby1 View Post

Sounds like what they are saying is without proper coding games will run bad on this new stuff. Guess that means nvidia will have to release good drivers. Something AMD has never been able to do well.... I dont think this will be a big problem for nvidia.

I don't think you read the article at all. Drivers has nothing to do it. Kepler hedged its bet on physx, and there are only 1-2 games per year supporting it. Obviously these are all rumors and such.
Edited by xoleras - 2/2/12 at 9:34am
post #147 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

This doesn't make sense though.... NVIDIA would have to be intercepting the physics calls from the engine or the other middleware (i.e. Havok). I don't see this happening.

Yea it's not possible currently, you cannot have any latency on gameplay physics.
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post #148 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoleras View Post

Using your argument we can say AMD was innovative with the faildozer, with the 2 applications that it beats the 2700k in. Balls in your court.
I'd rather have a card faster across the board, not one that is fast in a physx game but suck at everything else.

Innovation doesn't always mean a straight up victory in the first generation of a product, Bulldozer is very innovative. Zambezi (ie. FX8150, etc) is slow mainly due to the 32nm process holding back clocks and cache latencies/thrashing. Please, read up on this stuff before making such sweeping claims as "Faildozer", otherwise you may look a bit dumb if said issues are fixed in the future and the Bulldozer architecture is proven to be good. wink.gif

The same thing applies to this, it uses a new architecture with some obviously innovative ideas and an unusual way of doing things (ie. Heavy reliance on software being optimised) and it may suck at first, but subsequent generations can fix those issues. Heck, if it's purely software holding performance back when it comes out then newer drivers and patches for games will fix stuff too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenixlight View Post

I can only think of one game that actually has the option to turn on Phsyx (Mafia 2) and all it does is lower your FPS. The game looks great without it, I don't think many future games will bother with it either.

It does a lot more than that. I'm glad to be running a dedicated PhysX GPU for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 View Post

Physics hardware =! PhysX
We're talking about a bigger set of games, read the article for more info. It means games that don't have the "proper" middleware will cause GK104 to perform regularly (not very impressive if lower than OC'ed 6970/Pitcairn) with games that are patched however, the GK104 will perform as if it were on steroids. That's how you should read it.
I doubt Charlie would say this card would stomp the 7970 on every metric if the performance was exclusive to PhysX w/ GPU acceleration. PhysX increases the workload btw...

QFT.

And considering GK104s intended market and its price, OCed HD6970 performance would be good.
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post #149 of 204
Rumours, rumours. And so lovely written too.
Quote:
That said, SemiAccurate is told Kepler/GK104 will be marketed as having a dedicated block, and this will undoubtedly be repeated everywhere, truth not withstanding. Luckily, since most of the target audience isn’t technically literate, it may “become fact” through the VIECOOCDF (Vast Internet Echo Chamber Of Often Repeated Dubious Facts). Lowering the collective intelligence can be profitable if not ethical. Luckily, the story doesn’t end here, it gets much worse.
After that, I had a hard time taking anything seriously. This article mainly talks about is nVidia being unethical, apparently whilst AMD is a company entirely comprised of saints. Throw in some wild speculation that isn't really based on anything, and bam, OCN frenzy. Well done. The only sensible part of this article is the very last line:
Quote:
Big grains of salt around this one people, be very skeptical of everything you hear, and take nothing at face value.
.
Thanks SA, for that eye-opening advice, but I already do that, and just because you mentioned it doesn't mean you're exempt you from that skepticism.


Uselessness of the article aside, I wouldn't mind if nVidia decided to push PhysX more. Optimising their cards for it means they have to get developers to implement it so it's not a wasted feature, and I for one think PhysX looks damn cool.
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post #150 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vonnis View Post

apparently whilst AMD is a company entirely comprised of saints.

Quote me where he said something to that effect, please. He definitely wasn't insinuating it and only a fool would deny that AMD aren't unethical at times too.
That said, even if he is an AMD fanboy...Why does that make the rumour definitely invalid and untrue? Filter out the biased comments and you get the picture that GK104 relies heavily on software, more so than previous generations of hardware.
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