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[SemiAccurate] Physics hardware makes Kepler/GK104 fast - Page 18

post #171 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr0sty View Post

i doubt that nvidia would really have something this powerful .. mid end gpu that rivals amd's high end gpu? LOL sure ..

To be fair, AMD had something similar (but not as good) with the 5770... but yes very unlikely
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post #172 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfc89 View Post

In two months when Nvidia still doesn't have a card out we'll see just how premature I was.

This is the new release gen, it doesn't matter that much as GTX 700 and HD8k will be out pretty fast after these new GPUs. nVidia do need to get back in line with AMD though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khemhotep View Post

Yep. And jumping right back because AMD still can't get out of it's own way when it comes to drivers.

Yet to see any major issue with either AMD or nVidia recently, and if we're going to use older drivers as an example...Well, I had HD4890 CFX with two screens, a setup notorious for being buggy. Not a single bug that I couldn't trace back to an unstable memory OC (900Mhz @ CL4-4-4-10-1T was pushing it a bit much for my DDR2)

Now, lets compare that to nVidia drivers on my GTX 275 I had afterwards...I'd get random driver crashes when I skipped forward in a video in VLC or Media Player Classic too much, which required a restart to fix. That's it. Since I got the GTX 470, it's been flawless though, same with a friends HD6870 CFX. (Bar a bit of Microstutter)

I'm curious, do you have any reason to say AMD has bad drivers, apart from what you read on the internet? Quite a few people still mention it from when they apparently did (I won't say they had perfect drivers, but I'm pretty sure if people had checked their OCs much more thoroughly then there'd have been a lot less issues...) without actually having any experience, even though the information is out-dated and invalid for todays drivers.
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post #173 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

Good question. Games that use PhysX (with effects) are actually using two separate physics simulations, one on the CPU for gameplay physics, and the other on the GPU (effects only). I don't see how a game using only CPU PhysX can affect an Nvidia machine differently than an AMD machine.
In fact, I wrote a game engine a couple years back that used CPU-only PhysX and the physics time required was the same regardless of the GPU.

Thanks for the response. But I'm still a little confused. I was under impression that Physx effects like cloth simulation & smoke, not physics, can only be enabled on Nvidia systems. So how can you even compare nvidia performance to Amd performance when there is Physx involved
post #174 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by dantoddd View Post

Thanks for the response. But I'm still a little confused. I was under impression that Physx effects like cloth simulation & smoke, not physics, can only be enabled on Nvidia systems. So how can you even compare nvidia performance to Amd performance when there is Physx involved

You can compare them with GPU PhysX effects turned off, at which point it should be like comparing the video cards in any other game. With GPU PhysX enabled framerate should theoretically drop on the Nvida system, as the GPU that is being used for rendering now has to render effects created by the other GPU that is calculating the physics for those effects.

Generally I would say that games using GPU-enabled physics effects run well on Nvidia cards because Nvidia does a lot of work with developers to make the games run well on their hardware. At my last job Nvidia said, unofficially, that if we supported and touted their new 3D stereoscopic glasses and monitors with our game they would help make sure we had support with our graphics setup, fortunately we declined and took care of it ourselves, I was glad we didn't advertise for one company or the other. They would've given the same offer for PhysX however we were too far along with development and already using Havok, which is quite a bit more efficient anyway, it just lacks GPU acceleration. Havok is efficient enough to do plenty of physics effects on the GPU, we were simulating hundreds of objects per frame with physics updates under 1ms, leaving 15.6 ms for everything else to still get 60 fps, and of those 15ms, about 10 were used for rendering tasks (on the CPU), Havok also supports things like cloth without a GPU, Nvidia has incentive to make some things GPU-only so they can sell more GPUs and hurt AMD by getting proprietary techniques into games.

IMO physics on the GPU is pretty gimmicky until GPUs can be accessed for queries and work just as fast as a CPU can, but a the moment asking the GPU for data takes about 30-45ms, whereas querying for information on memory in the stack (cache), or even system memory, is hundreds of thousands of times faster in most cases. Until the time when there is almost no late cy between CPU and GPU it will just be a little extra visuals at the cost of another entire GPU.
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post #175 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

You can compare them with GPU PhysX effects turned off, at which point it should be like comparing the video cards in any other game. With GPU PhysX enabled framerate should theoretically drop on the Nvida system, as the GPU that is being used for rendering now has to render effects created by the other GPU that is calculating the physics for those effects.
Generally I would say that games using GPU-enabled physics effects run well on Nvidia cards because Nvidia does a lot of work with developers to make the games run well on their hardware. At my last job Nvidia said, unofficially, that if we supported and touted their new 3D stereoscopic glasses and monitors with our game they would help make sure we had support with our graphics setup, fortunately we declined and took care of it ourselves, I was glad we didn't advertise for one company or the other. They would've given the same offer for PhysX however we were too far along with development and already using Havok, which is quite a bit more efficient anyway, it just lacks GPU acceleration. Havok is efficient enough to do plenty of physics effects on the GPU, we were simulating hundreds of objects per frame with physics updates under 1ms, leaving 15.6 ms for everything else to still get 60 fps, and of those 15ms, about 10 were used for rendering tasks (on the CPU), Havok also supports things like cloth without a GPU, Nvidia has incentive to make some things GPU-only so they can sell more GPUs and hurt AMD by getting proprietary techniques into games.
IMO physics on the GPU is pretty gimmicky until GPUs can be accessed for queries and work just as fast as a CPU can, but a the moment asking the GPU for data takes about 30-45ms, whereas querying for information on memory in the stack (cache), or even system memory, is hundreds of thousands of times faster in most cases. Until the time when there is almost no late cy between CPU and GPU it will just be a little extra visuals at the cost of another entire GPU.

Thanks for that explanation about CPUs being better at doing physics than GPUs.

So what is your best guess as to how nvidia is getting much better performance in certain games.
post #176 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Now, lets compare that to nVidia drivers on my GTX 275 I had afterwards...I'd get random driver crashes when I skipped forward in a video in VLC or Media Player Classic too much, which required a restart to fix. That's it.


you call that a small bug? LOL
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post #177 of 204
Here's an interesting article

http://semiaccurate.com/2010/07/07/nvidia-purposefully-hobbles-physx-cpu/

He's essentially claiming that Nvdia is intentionally slowing down physx on CPU by forcing the CPU run physics on a single core
Edited by dantoddd - 2/2/12 at 10:32pm
post #178 of 204
i want gk110, not gk104
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post #179 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

I wish nvidia would stop with the PissX campaigns already. As long as it is property and does not run on AMD cards it is not going to be widely used.thumbsdownsmileyanim.gif

they chose opencl of their own accord
post #180 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by dantoddd View Post

Thanks for that explanation about CPUs being better at doing physics than GPUs.
So what is your best guess as to how nvidia is getting much better performance in certain games.

My best guess is that those games run well on Nvidia cards because Nvidia helped optimize them for Nvidia hardware, and that it's unrelated to PhysX. The work I did with gameplay PhysX a couple of years back never ran faster on an Nvidia versus and ATi card. There are ways to offload work to an Nvidia GPU, but its only for effects so it shouldn't make the game any faster than what an AMD card would see.
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