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The #1 reason I keep having to run back to Windows... - Page 3

post #21 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

The Windows registry and straightforward setup programs aren't a "Windows thing" but a usability thing. They provide a user experience that should be what application developers strive for, regardless of the OS.
As has already been said a few times:
* package managers are a far better user experience than standalone install.exe.
* /etc/ is far more usable for server administrator than a registry.

At risk of sounding arrogant, you're new to all this so you really don't have any experience in administrating stable servers, let alone professionally. If I had to edit a "Linux registry" every time I needed to add a new vhost to Apache, new user account or even just change the timeout on a internet-facing service, I'd go mad!

Aww, come on. People rarely have to touch the Windows registry. It's value lies in maintaining information on how applications should behave, where they should be installed, etc. Programs generally install to the "Program Files" directory, for instance. This is both by convention and by instruction from a setting in the registry. Now, don't get me wrong. I can certainly see where config files in /etc is both more accessible and easier to work with (I don't typically relish the thought of digging through the Windows registry). It's the concept of having all such system-governing/defining settings gathered in one place. I find that an appealing concept.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

I'm not even going to go back on why package managers are better than install.exe's because that will become very obvious why after just a short while. (the iOS / Android example of install programs is a perfect demonstration though)

You're probably right there. Had the tutorial I was following started by suggesting the package manager approach, I may well be coding right now. As it stands its first recommendation was to download and extract the files manually, so that's what I did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

This is where Linux's grassroots nature become a liability. There is just not enough consistency and standardization in the Linux community. The /etc directory is great, but different philosophies over the years have left much of the rest of the core directory tree a bit cluttered. /opt, /var, /proc, /usr...every time I think I have a handle on the purpose of each, a program comes along that was written using a different philosophy and makes its own rules.
I'd already said don't bother worrying about Linux's file system. It's largely irrelevant where things are.

all you need to know is /etc = config files and /home = user files. everything else is either irrelevant to you at this point in time, unnecessary to know (even for administrators) or so on.

That's literally all you need to know at this point in time.

That's all well and good until some documentation you're reading instructs you to execute php [plus arguments] and, due to the way php was installed (like, exactly how the documentation instructed) it doesn't happen to be included in the path environment variable. Then you have to go looking for it, and the waters can get pretty murky. Honestly, I'm not some idiot who just started using computers. I'm a .Net/MSSQL applications developer. Systems concepts are by no means foreign to me. Linux has simply frustrated me with this sort of thing time and again. I'm sure a large part of this is the fact that I'm trying to do more than just log in and browse the internet. Setting up a C++ or PHP web developer environment is naturally going to invite various such complications.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

@Plan9 - I was on the symfony-project website, following *their* tutorial, which instructed me to download the project and uncompress it in place.
But you didn't read on. They had a section dedicated to Debian and Ubuntu.

You're right. I stopped where the problem occurred and tried to work it out. Not exactly an unreasonable reaction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

And, by the way, I wouldn't call what I did "rage quitting" Debian to try Ubuntu. I simply hit a snag that baffled me and did what is typically not only considered acceptable but almost expected in the Linux world - tried it on a different Linux distro.
sorry but that's not typical, acceptable nor expected in the Linux world. Your snag is such a basic non-issue, that you'd have laughed if you realised what it was. But instead of Googling the error, you gave up.

You wouldn't do that in Windows land so why do you assume that Linux users just give up when one specific peice of software throws out one error?

If there were dozens of different Windows distros, you bet I might. When I said it was acceptable, I was referring more to the way Linux users tend to distro hop. In my case, I played the odds that the time it took to install a barebones version of another distro that may not exhibit the same behavior may be less than the time it would take me to figure out this particular problem. This wasn't necessarily a knee-jerk reaction. This was a response influenced by running into this sort of problem many, many times in the past - something that could very likely easily be solved by a more seasoned Linux user. Trouble is, I'm not a seasoned Linux user.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

The Linux community earns high marks for features and capability. It just seems that none of the distros have any idea how to tackle usability without bloating their distro nearly beyond recognition.
This really depends on what context your "usability" is.

By "usability" I'm not referring to the number of included packages. I'm talking about what is involved in carrying out core tasks, like installing software or simply locating it after it's installed. Package managers do, admittedly, take care of much of this for you. *That* is usability. What happens when a particular app isn't available in your package manager, or the version available is an older version?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

It's not as simple as saying "distro's have no idea of usability" because different distros cater for different markets - each of which will have a different set of requirements and thus expect different starting levels for user abilities. (plus you're ranting about server-based distros, which aren't supposed to be administrated by newbies anyway)

As I mentioned, I'm an applications developer. A server environment that can't be administered by anyone other than experienced Linux administrators would be useless from a development standpoint. I'm sure that is not the expectation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

Like I said, I'm merely venting. I will continue to work at it. I just hope the day will come soon that my time with Linux is spent getting something done rather than trying to figure out what's wrong with my system.

One day it will just click and you'll think "what a plonker I've been for doing xyz". We've all been there (myself included) and we've all made silly mistakes when I first started out, I once installed a new Linux kernel to a temporary file system - doh!)

However, for now I highly recommend you download VirtualBox, install debian and try again in there. that way if you can take snapshots and then easily roll back should you break something. Then once you have got the hang of the administration in there, replicate that to your real machines.

I have been using VirtualBox, which does make it pretty quick and relatively painless to wipe it all out and start over, but I hadn't considered using snapshots. I'll certainly look into that. I'm also sure you're right about that eventual "click" where things will start to make more sense. I consider myself a rather capable programmer in Windows, but I must say, up to this point, trying my hand at the Linux alternative has been a pretty humbling experience.

Thanks for your advice.
post #22 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

Aww, come on. People rarely have to touch the Windows registry. It's value lies in maintaining information on how applications should behave, where they should be installed, etc. Programs generally install to the "Program Files" directory, for instance. This is both by convention and by instruction from a setting in the registry. Now, don't get me wrong. I can certainly see where config files in /etc is both more accessible and easier to work with (I don't typically relish the thought of digging through the Windows registry). It's the concept of having all such system-governing/defining settings gathered in one place. I find that an appealing concept.
You're probably right there. Had the tutorial I was following started by suggesting the package manager approach, I may well be coding right now. As it stands its first recommendation was to download and extract the files manually, so that's what I did.
That's all well and good until some documentation you're reading instructs you to execute php [plus arguments] and, due to the way php was installed (like, exactly how the documentation instructed) it doesn't happen to be included in the path environment variable. Then you have to go looking for it, and the waters can get pretty murky. Honestly, I'm not some idiot who just started using computers. I'm a .Net/MSSQL applications developer. Systems concepts are by no means foreign to me. Linux has simply frustrated me with this sort of thing time and again. I'm sure a large part of this is the fact that I'm trying to do more than just log in and browse the internet. Setting up a C++ or PHP web developer environment is naturally going to invite various such complications.

You're right. I stopped where the problem occurred and tried to work it out. Not exactly an unreasonable reaction.
If there were dozens of different Windows distros, you bet I might. When I said it was acceptable, I was referring more to the way Linux users tend to distro hop. In my case, I played the odds that the time it took to install a barebones version of another distro that may not exhibit the same behavior may be less than the time it would take me to figure out this particular problem. This wasn't necessarily a knee-jerk reaction. This was a response influenced by running into this sort of problem many, many times in the past - something that could very likely easily be solved by a more seasoned Linux user. Trouble is, I'm not a seasoned Linux user.

By "usability" I'm not referring to the number of included packages. I'm talking about what is involved in carrying out core tasks, like installing software or simply locating it after it's installed. Package managers do, admittedly, take care of much of this for you. *That* is usability. What happens when a particular app isn't available in your package manager, or the version available is an older version?
As I mentioned, I'm an applications developer. A server environment that can't be administered by anyone other than experienced Linux administrators would be useless from a development standpoint. I'm sure that is not the expectation.
I have been using VirtualBox, which does make it pretty quick and relatively painless to wipe it all out and start over, but I hadn't considered using snapshots. I'll certainly look into that. I'm also sure you're right about that eventual "click" where things will start to make more sense. I consider myself a rather capable programmer in Windows, but I must say, up to this point, trying my hand at the Linux alternative has been a pretty humbling experience.
Thanks for your advice.

Just had to comment on your comment about the registry. It may be great to have everything in one place. It's not. Singular point of failure. Unable to easily view and edit from CLI. Not easy to backup and migrate.
post #23 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

Aww, come on. People rarely have to touch the Windows registry. It's value lies in maintaining information on how applications should behave, where they should be installed, etc.
You edit the registry all the time. You might not do it manually but you still have to do it. The reason the registry works is because it's just a basic database for frontends. This wouldn't work in Linux and thus why /etc/ is much saner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

Programs generally install to the "Program Files" directory, for instance. This is both by convention and by instruction from a setting in the registry. Now, don't get me wrong. I can certainly see where config files in /etc is both more accessible and easier to work with (I don't typically relish the thought of digging through the Windows registry). It's the concept of having all such system-governing/defining settings gathered in one place. I find that an appealing concept.
but that would be an ruddy nightmare for system administration. I've already given a detailed breakdown why /etc/ works for Linux tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

You're probably right there. Had the tutorial I was following started by suggesting the package manager approach, I may well be coding right now. As it stands its first recommendation was to download and extract the files manually, so that's what I did.
The tutorial didn't start by suggesting that because it's a given that you'd use the package manager method first. tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

That's all well and good until some documentation you're reading instructs you to execute php [plus arguments] and, due to the way php was installed (like, exactly how the documentation instructed) it doesn't happen to be included in the path environment variable. Then you have to go looking for it, and the waters can get pretty murky.
But if you installed it correctly to begin with, you wouldn't have had those problems rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

Honestly, I'm not some idiot who just started using computers. I'm a .Net/MSSQL applications developer. Systems concepts are by no means foreign to me. Linux has simply frustrated me with this sort of thing time and again. I'm sure a large part of this is the fact that I'm trying to do more than just log in and browse the internet. Setting up a C++ or PHP web developer environment is naturally going to invite various such complications.
Very true, however the fact that you're trying to run Linux like it's Windows is also a big part.

For the record, I've done the whole Windows dev thing as well. Not just with .NET either - when I first started Windows development, .NET didn't exist. So I've seen things from both sides of the fence. One thing I'll always praise Microsoft on is their development framework - even Win32, with all its faults, was largely a pleasure to work with. And Visual Studio is easily the best IDE around (well, since Microsoft basically destroyed Borland :'( ). In comparison, Linux can be a little awkward. But when it comes to scripting languages (PHP, Perl, Python, etc), Linux runs rings around Windows.

The things is, they're very different OSs and thus require a whole other mindset for use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

You're right. I stopped where the problem occurred and tried to work it out. Not exactly an unreasonable reaction.
It is though. As I've said 3 times now, you wouldn't have reacted like that if it was a complication on Windows, yet you did on Linux and then launched into a rant about things not working.
I appreciate your frustration, however i don't agree with the way you handled it. You were blaming Linux for complications that were essentially your fault. And then instead of asking for help on here, you ranted and gave up. As a developer, you must be used to fixing faults, so I don't see why this should have been any different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

By "usability" I'm not referring to the number of included packages. I'm talking about what is involved in carrying out core tasks, like installing software or simply locating it after it's installed. Package managers do, admittedly, take care of much of this for you. *That* is usability. What happens when a particular app isn't available in your package manager, or the version available is an older version?
Yeah, things do get more complicated then. Generally, it's preferable not to have the latest bleeding edge versions (again, another Windows mentality that doesn't apply well for Linux). However if you're really bothered about having the latest versions then you're better off with something like Arch Linux rather than Debian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

As I mentioned, I'm an applications developer. A server environment that can't be administered by anyone other than experienced Linux administrators would be useless from a development standpoint. I'm sure that is not the expectation.
First off all, lets make the distinction between applications developer and web developer, as you're lumping two entirely different industries into one.

For web development, the way web servers should be set up is the sys admins do the administration and the developers have a much more limited user account. There's absolutely no need for web developers to have system level access. Thus this leads to a much more stable, secure and scalable development platform. So it completely makes sense for a server environment to be beyond the scope of the web devs.

However if you're doing applications development, then you'd be an experienced Linux admin anyway as it would be impossible to develop native applications for a platform you're inexperienced on. It would be a little like asking someone to write an OS X app if they've never used OS X before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

I have been using VirtualBox, which does make it pretty quick and relatively painless to wipe it all out and start over, but I hadn't considered using snapshots. I'll certainly look into that. I'm also sure you're right about that eventual "click" where things will start to make more sense. I consider myself a rather capable programmer in Windows, but I must say, up to this point, trying my hand at the Linux alternative has been a pretty humbling experience.
We've all been there. Back when I first started using Linux, package managers were still in their infancy and recompiling the kernel was common place. The number of stupid mistake I've made is just mental. But then I seem to remember breaking crashing Windows on a number of occasions due to experimenting with undocumented APIs. In fact I'm pretty sure I BSODed Win2000 (which is pretty much rock solid) because of hacking some Win32 APIs to give unsupported transparency effects lol)
post #24 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

Aww, come on. People rarely have to touch the Windows registry. It's value lies in maintaining information on how applications should behave, where they should be installed, etc.
You edit the registry all the time. You might not do it manually but you still have to do it. The reason the registry works is because it's just a basic database for frontends. This wouldn't work in Linux and thus why /etc/ is much saner.

You stated that if you had to edit the registry every time you needed to make a system change, you'd go nuts. My point is you don't typically have to do anything that would drive you nuts in order to edit the registry under normal circumstances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

You're probably right there. Had the tutorial I was following started by suggesting the package manager approach, I may well be coding right now. As it stands its first recommendation was to download and extract the files manually, so that's what I did.
The tutorial didn't start by suggesting that because it's a given that you'd use the package manager method first. tongue.gif

Um, yeah, it did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

That's all well and good until some documentation you're reading instructs you to execute php [plus arguments] and, due to the way php was installed (like, exactly how the documentation instructed) it doesn't happen to be included in the path environment variable. Then you have to go looking for it, and the waters can get pretty murky.
But if you installed it correctly to begin with, you wouldn't have had those problems rolleyes.gif

I've learned this. I'm taking another stab at it now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

Honestly, I'm not some idiot who just started using computers. I'm a .Net/MSSQL applications developer. Systems concepts are by no means foreign to me. Linux has simply frustrated me with this sort of thing time and again. I'm sure a large part of this is the fact that I'm trying to do more than just log in and browse the internet. Setting up a C++ or PHP web developer environment is naturally going to invite various such complications.
Very true, however the fact that you're trying to run Linux like it's Windows is also a big part.

For the record, I've done the whole Windows dev thing as well. Not just with .NET either - when I first started Windows development, .NET didn't exist. So I've seen things from both sides of the fence. One thing I'll always praise Microsoft on is their development framework - even Win32, with all its faults, was largely a pleasure to work with. And Visual Studio is easily the best IDE around (well, since Microsoft basically destroyed Borland :'( ). In comparison, Linux can be a little awkward. But when it comes to scripting languages (PHP, Perl, Python, etc), Linux runs rings around Windows.

The things is, they're very different OSs and thus require a whole other mindset for use.

I've been visiting/revisiting Linux for some 10 years or so - admittedly never being able to stay with it for long. I understand that Linux is a different paradigm and I always go into it with an open mind. I don't have any expectations of things being done like Windows. The usability concerns of application installation have been addressed somewhat in Linux with the various package managers. They just don't go far enough. I don't care if it's done just like Windows does it or MacOS, Solaris or DOS or any other OS. The point is that the process is still overly complicated in many cases (where package managers aren't involved) with inconsistencies that can create a lot of confusion. The gurus don't have much trouble with it, but other user segments need to be able to function as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

You're right. I stopped where the problem occurred and tried to work it out. Not exactly an unreasonable reaction.
It is though. As I've said 3 times now, you wouldn't have reacted like that if it was a complication on Windows, yet you did on Linux and then launched into a rant about things not working.
I appreciate your frustration, however i don't agree with the way you handled it. You were blaming Linux for complications that were essentially your fault. And then instead of asking for help on here, you ranted and gave up. As a developer, you must be used to fixing faults, so I don't see why this should have been any different.

Again, you're acting like I bashed my keyboard, threw things across the room and went into some sort of rage. I didn't. I explained my reasoning for trying it with another distro, where I encountered other points of user dissatisfaction and came here to vent and perhaps get some experienced insight that could improve my lot. It's much appreciated, but please don't use a temper tantrum that didn't happen as support for an argument that the problem is completely with me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

As I mentioned, I'm an applications developer. A server environment that can't be administered by anyone other than experienced Linux administrators would be useless from a development standpoint. I'm sure that is not the expectation.
First off all, lets make the distinction between applications developer and web developer, as you're lumping two entirely different industries into one.

For web development, the way web servers should be set up is the sys admins do the administration and the developers have a much more limited user account. There's absolutely no need for web developers to have system level access. Thus this leads to a much more stable, secure and scalable development platform. So it completely makes sense for a server environment to be beyond the scope of the web devs.

However if you're doing applications development, then you'd be an experienced Linux admin anyway as it would be impossible to develop native applications for a platform you're inexperienced on. It would be a little like asking someone to write an OS X app if they've never used OS X before.

People do it all the time. Sure, at work, I have an enterprise team to handle server admin, but, like most developers, when I'm tinkering with something at home in the evening - especially something fun and interesting - we pretty much go it alone. Web or local client application development doesn't really matter. Most developers I know do various R&D or side projects at home. Most of them aren't qualified to be server admins. This is Windows development, though, so the expectation that the same is possible with Linux is reasonable. And before you go there, yeah, I now, I've been using Windows for going on 20 years, so of course, I'm more familiar with it. I'm not exactly brand new to Linux though.
post #25 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

You stated that if you had to edit the registry every time you needed to make a system change, you'd go nuts. My point is you don't typically have to do anything that would drive you nuts in order to edit the registry under normal circumstances.
Yes, because there's 3rd party GUIs that do the updates for you. However GUIs are severely limited in their power / flexibility where as conf files are not. Hence my point. I've been over this several times already rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

Um, yeah, it did.
Go back and read what I said.
I wasn't arguing that it didn't give the tar.gz at the top, i was arguing why it didn't have .deb at the top.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

I've learned this. I'm taking another stab at it now.
Excellent biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

I've been visiting/revisiting Linux for some 10 years or so - admittedly never being able to stay with it for long. I understand that Linux is a different paradigm and I always go into it with an open mind. I don't have any expectations of things being done like Windows. The usability concerns of application installation have been addressed somewhat in Linux with the various package managers. They just don't go far enough. I don't care if it's done just like Windows does it or MacOS, Solaris or DOS or any other OS. The point is that the process is still overly complicated in many cases (where package managers aren't involved) with inconsistencies that can create a lot of confusion. The gurus don't have much trouble with it, but other user segments need to be able to function as well.
What you're asking is akin to complaining that Windows source code doesn't come in a user friendly way.
If there's no package for your Linux software then there's no package for it. You either have to compile it manually (as you would have to do on any OS - windows included) or chose another Linux distro that does have that application packaged.

I mean you're a developer for christs sake - this should be home turf for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

Again, you're acting like I bashed my keyboard, threw things across the room and went into some sort of rage. I didn't. I explained my reasoning for trying it with another distro, where I encountered other points of user dissatisfaction and came here to vent and perhaps get some experienced insight that could improve my lot. It's much appreciated, but please don't use a temper tantrum that didn't happen as support for an argument that the problem is completely with me.
No I'm not. I never once suggested or even assumed you had. I just said I don't agree with your readiness to give up when your 1st attempt goes wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

People do it all the time. Sure, at work, I have an enterprise team to handle server admin, but, like most developers, when I'm tinkering with something at home in the evening - especially something fun and interesting - we pretty much go it alone. Web or local client application development doesn't really matter. Most developers I know do various R&D or side projects at home. Most of them aren't qualified to be server admins. This is Windows development, though, so the expectation that the same is possible with Linux is reasonable. And before you go there, yeah, I now, I've been using Windows for going on 20 years, so of course, I'm more familiar with it. I'm not exactly brand new to Linux though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

People do it all the time. Sure, at work, I have an enterprise team to handle server admin, but, like most developers, when I'm tinkering with something at home in the evening - especially something fun and interesting - we pretty much go it alone.
But for home testing you wouldn't install an enterprise OS unless you knew what you were doing. You'd probably just install Ubuntu Desktop, Mint or OpenSuse. ie an OS that is easy to run.
Much like for home testing ASP.NET, you'd just install IIS on Win7 Pro rather than buying a Win 2008 Server licence.

Many people just lump everything "Linux" into one category, but the reality is Linux is as varied as the Windows ecosystem (eg from the upcoming NT-based Windows Phone 8 through to enterprise servers)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

Web or local client application development doesn't really matter.
Well yes it does - for reasons I've already expressed.

Web pages are generated in a sandboxed environment with their own set of APIs. In many cases (and particularly with PHP), the language is almost independent of the OS (in that it's completely portable). Writing stand alone applications is another ball game all together. If you want multi-threading, then you need to learn how the OS managed threads. If you want particular GUI widgets, then you need to learn the relevant system APIs (and in some cases, how the OS does message passing and event triggering). If you want your application to interact with other applications then you need to learn more OS specifics. Same with if you want system tray icons, bespoke context menus, hardware interfaces, and so on.

web dev and desktop application development are like chalk and cheese. (which quite frankly, i'd have expected you to know, what with being an experienced developer yourself).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

I'm not exactly brand new to Linux though.
I don't mean to be rude, but you're as good as new to linux because you're making the same "school boy" errors that n00bs would.

I appreciate I'm probably coming across condensing, but from my view point I have someone who has stated that they've been using Linux (off and on) for more than 10 years yet they get the absolute fundamentals wrong (eg not knowing anything about the directory structure, not being aware of package managers, etc). So like I said before, I'm more than happy to help in any way I can - just please don't fob me off "x is rubbish, y doesn't work" because, like yourself, I have spent many years as a windows developer as well as my more recent career as a Linux and UNIX administrator. So I've seen both sides of the argument first hand (just as plenty of others on here have too) smile.gif
post #26 of 47
Have you tried compiling source code on Windows? It is far more painful and usually require visual studio. Have you tried compiling PHP on windows? Along with all the dependencies?

The "it just works" on Windows feeling often come at the expense of developer's pain. Which is too often ignored by managers.

Standard-wise, the build system for linux is much more standardized than Windows. Also, linux distros are based on sharing. A program that need PHP will use your system PHP. On Windows, the same program will probably come with its own PHP, wasting ressources and not making things easier, since package managers will install PHP as a dependency automatically.

Do you update your programs on Windows? Don't you find it painful to update them one by one through their own update system?

We must stop comparing apples to oranges. What we call Linux is only the kernel, the rest is an amalgam of various projects and standards. So obviously a distribution that use linux can be wildly different from another since they are free to do as they please. I suppose that's the price to pay to embrace freedom. You could compare Windows to Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSUSE, etc, but you can't compare the whole Windows ecosystem to Linux.
post #27 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

You stated that if you had to edit the registry every time you needed to make a system change, you'd go nuts. My point is you don't typically have to do anything that would drive you nuts in order to edit the registry under normal circumstances.
Yes, because there's 3rd party GUIs that do the updates for you. However GUIs are severely limited in their power / flexibility where as conf files are not. Hence my point. I've been over this several times already rolleyes.gif

98 times out of 100 the options dialog in any Windows application will allow you to cleanly modify any registry setting pertinent to the application. As a matter of fact, I can think of only one application I use at work that utilizes a registry setting not modifiable through an options dialog, and I consider it a blatant oversight by the vendor in that LOB application. Rarely do I need to touch the registry manually. It really is a moot point. Single point of failure? I get that, but an inconvenience? Not at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

Um, yeah, it did.
Go back and read what I said.
I wasn't arguing that it didn't give the tar.gz at the top, i was arguing why it didn't have .deb at the top.

It didn't mention it *at all*.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

I've been visiting/revisiting Linux for some 10 years or so - admittedly never being able to stay with it for long. I understand that Linux is a different paradigm and I always go into it with an open mind. I don't have any expectations of things being done like Windows. The usability concerns of application installation have been addressed somewhat in Linux with the various package managers. They just don't go far enough. I don't care if it's done just like Windows does it or MacOS, Solaris or DOS or any other OS. The point is that the process is still overly complicated in many cases (where package managers aren't involved) with inconsistencies that can create a lot of confusion. The gurus don't have much trouble with it, but other user segments need to be able to function as well.
What you're asking is akin to complaining that Windows source code doesn't come in a user friendly way.
If there's no package for your Linux software then there's no package for it. You either have to compile it manually (as you would have to do on any OS - windows included) or chose another Linux distro that does have that application packaged.

I mean you're a developer for christs sake - this should be home turf for you.

It's home turf in that I see and understand what's going on. To extend your analogy, it's like putting every touchdown a team scores through a random number generator to determine how many points they get.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

Again, you're acting like I bashed my keyboard, threw things across the room and went into some sort of rage. I didn't. I explained my reasoning for trying it with another distro, where I encountered other points of user dissatisfaction and came here to vent and perhaps get some experienced insight that could improve my lot. It's much appreciated, but please don't use a temper tantrum that didn't happen as support for an argument that the problem is completely with me.
No I'm not. I never once suggested or even assumed you had. I just said I don't agree with your readiness to give up when your 1st attempt goes wrong.

"Give up", "rage quit" (I believe those were your words from earlier in the thread, whatever. I wasn't tied to any particular distro, so knowing that some distros do thing a little differently than others, it was faster to try that approach than dig through the internet trying to figure out what was wrong with what I had...but I've already explained this more than once. rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

People do it all the time. Sure, at work, I have an enterprise team to handle server admin, but, like most developers, when I'm tinkering with something at home in the evening - especially something fun and interesting - we pretty much go it alone.
But for home testing you wouldn't install an enterprise OS unless you knew what you were doing. You'd probably just install Ubuntu Desktop, Mint or OpenSuse. ie an OS that is easy to run.
Much like for home testing ASP.NET, you'd just install IIS on Win7 Pro rather than buying a Win 2008 Server licence.

Many people just lump everything "Linux" into one category, but the reality is Linux is as varied as the Windows ecosystem (eg from the upcoming NT-based Windows Phone 8 through to enterprise servers)

Those distros you mention are just a Linux server with an IDE. It's not the IDE I'm missing, it's some form of consistency. I don't instinctively know what's going on under the hood yet, so I try to follow the documentation. My problems have always arisen when at some point what the document portrays just isn't the case. Something that the application with which I'm working expects to be in /var/bin just isn't there or something similar. At that point I have no explanation for the discrepancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

Web or local client application development doesn't really matter.
Well yes it does - for reasons I've already expressed.

Web pages are generated in a sandboxed environment with their own set of APIs. In many cases (and particularly with PHP), the language is almost independent of the OS (in that it's completely portable). Writing stand alone applications is another ball game all together. If you want multi-threading, then you need to learn how the OS managed threads. If you want particular GUI widgets, then you need to learn the relevant system APIs (and in some cases, how the OS does message passing and event triggering). If you want your application to interact with other applications then you need to learn more OS specifics. Same with if you want system tray icons, bespoke context menus, hardware interfaces, and so on.

web dev and desktop application development are like chalk and cheese. (which quite frankly, i'd have expected you to know, what with being an experienced developer yourself).

Of course I know the difference between web and local client programming. C'mon. Let's not allow this to devolve into cheap rhetoric. Those differences don't really matter for the purposes of this discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

I'm not exactly brand new to Linux though.
I don't mean to be rude, but you're as good as new to linux because you're making the same "school boy" errors that n00bs would.

I appreciate I'm probably coming across condensing, but from my view point I have someone who has stated that they've been using Linux (off and on) for more than 10 years yet they get the absolute fundamentals wrong (eg not knowing anything about the directory structure, not being aware of package managers, etc). So like I said before, I'm more than happy to help in any way I can - just please don't fob me off "x is rubbish, y doesn't work" because, like yourself, I have spent many years as a windows developer as well as my more recent career as a Linux and UNIX administrator. So I've seen both sides of the argument first hand (just as plenty of others on here have too) smile.gif

Well, at the risk of being too blunt or ungateful (I do appreciate your advice), you *are* being rude and condescending. You seem to be taking my complaints about Linux personally, yet if I were to come in here with a similar reaction to Windows, you'd probably cheer me on. Linux isn't perfect. I'm not ignorant. I should clarify that I've been merely touching on Linux off and on over the past 10 years. Any extended period of use was simply as a desktop GUI for menial tasks, though I did get adventurous and run a game server for a while at one point. I am completely aware of package managers - enough so that I understand they don't cover everything.
post #28 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

 C'mon. Let's not allow this to devolve into cheap rhetoric.


too late, this discussion sailed into that realm long ago.

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post #29 of 47
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Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

98 times out of 100 the options dialog in any Windows application will allow you to cleanly modify any registry setting pertinent to the application. As a matter of fact, I can think of only one application I use at work that utilizes a registry setting not modifiable through an options dialog,
You're not listening to a single word I say axesmiley.png
Go back, have a look at the reasons I listed for why I like /etc and then think about how that would work with a GUI when most servers wouldn't even have XWindows installed.

I'm not arguing that registry is rubbish - I'm just saying that a Windows registry wouldn't work for Linux.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

It didn't mention it *at all*.
There's this thing called "search engines":
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Symfony+debian
and as if my magic there are instructions on Symfony's website for installing on Debian and Ubuntu.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

It's home turf in that I see and understand what's going on. To extend your analogy, it's like putting every touchdown a team scores through a random number generator to determine how many points they get.
Sorry what? o_O
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

"Give up", "rage quit" (I believe those were your words from earlier in the thread, whatever. I wasn't tied to any particular distro, so knowing that some distros do thing a little differently than others, it was faster to try that approach than dig through the internet trying to figure out what was wrong with what I had...but I've already explained this more than once.
"Give up" doesn't imply any sense of anger, however fair point on "rage quit". It was a colourful choice of words and wasn't meant literally, however you weren't to know that smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

Those distros you mention are just a Linux server with an IDE.
No they're not! Ubuntu (Desktop) and Mint are not even remotely server distros! And while OpenSuse is, it's management tools (YaST) is actually very good for newbies to the server world. I don't mean to be rude, but wouldn't it make more sense to trust a Linux sys admin on this than your own judgement when you admit yourself that you're pretty much clueless about Linux. You'd get a lot further a lot quicker if you listened to your peers rather than stubbornly spouting your own BS.

Also the term you're looking for is 'GUI' not 'IDE'. They're completely different things. I'm going to assume that was a Freudian slip though smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

It's not the IDE I'm missing, it's some form of consistency. I don't instinctively know what's going on under the hood yet, so I try to follow the documentation. My problems have always arisen when at some point what the document portrays just isn't the case. Something that the application with which I'm working expects to be in /var/bin just isn't there or something similar. At that point I have no explanation for the discrepancy
IT WAS YOUR ERROR!!!
It's been pointed out to you by every single person in this thread that you shouldn't do manual installs unless you really know what you're doing. Yet you continually blame Linux for your own mistakes. I mean seriously mate, do you blame Windows if you've got bugs in your .NET apps?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

Of course I know the difference between web and local client programming. C'mon. Let's not allow this to devolve into cheap rhetoric. Those differences don't really matter for the purposes of this discussion.
They do because you keep on mashing between the two fields as if it's the same thing. If you knew the difference, you'd wouldn't have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

Well, at the risk of being too blunt or ungateful (I do appreciate your advice), you *are* being rude and condescending.
Too right I am. I'm sorry for being rude, however it's only in reaction to you ignoring every piece of information I give you.
If you want advice, then listen. If you want to keep on failing at Linux for another 10 years, then please carry on as you were before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

You seem to be taking my complaints about Linux personally, yet if I were to come in here with a similar reaction to Windows, you'd probably cheer me on.
No I'm not taking them personally. Quite the contrary, I've been very objective about it as I've actually praised MS for their development framework earlier in this thread.
the reason why I'm getting annoying is because of the specifics of your complaints: they were all your own fault.

If you want to whinge about the lack of consistency between different distros, Linux's frequent habit of introducing new bugs to previous stable systems, the hell that is shared objects, FSF's xenophobia for anything outside of GPL or even just a rant about the state of Xorg, then I would be 100% behind you. However you're blaming your tools for mistakes that are entirely your fault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

Linux isn't perfect.
That we agree on. biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimojo View Post

I should clarify that I've been merely touching on Linux off and on over the past 10 years. Any extended period of use was simply as a desktop GUI for menial tasks, though I did get adventurous and run a game server for a while at one point. I am completely aware of package managers - enough so that I understand they don't cover everything.
If you know about package managers then you have no excuse for making your mistake. doh.gif
Edited by Plan9 - 2/3/12 at 6:50am
post #30 of 47
Anyway, I can't be arsed with this thread any more.

I wanted to help, I really did. but I think our personalities would prevent us from making constructive use of our time.

Good luck with your server smile.gif
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