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3M Novec 7000 Group

post #1 of 74
Thread Starter 
For anyone who is interested in using 3M Novec 7000 this thread is dedicated to all experimental cooling based on this amazing dielectric 34 degrees C boiling point man-made masterpiece.
Currently I am finishing my Intel ISEF / Siemens research thesis in using the Novec 7000 HFE coolant to improve the efficiency of server operation and cooling as a whole (PICTURES will be posted soon once testing is finished). Right now my research is very limited, as I am a High School student eventually looking to attend college to major in mechanical engineering. I would like to expand my research for next year with some better, possibly gaming hardware on the M-ATX form factor with some high end components to really showcase this HFE chemical lineup and with an increased demand of OC'ing gamers could possibly drop the current $285 per gallon price of this chemical.
If you have used Novec 7000 before or have input on future research please comment and subscribe to this forum!

CURENT UPDATE - laser cutting test cuts for immersion evaporation chamber, cutting and etching CPU bracket for evaporation plate, and laser etching copper evaporation plate for controlled etching (via copper etchant) VIDEO
LINK - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veaBXE63qDQ&context=C31745d1ADOEgsToPDskJEejxeNefNOzKMe7rEgsSL
Also please support my youtube channel "Tekdgeek" the corresponding website "tekdgeek.com" is currently offline due to a lack of funding.


- CHmodlabs
post #2 of 74
Thread Starter 
Testing is done!

https://vimeo.com/37127378
post #3 of 74
This is awesome! Is there any evidence that the HFE interacts with any of the insulators on the board? This reminds me of some of the oil immersion experiments and they always had trouble with the electrolytic capacitors seals being degraded by the mineral oil.

Keep up the good work!
post #4 of 74
I've used the original 3M solution.
The end result is the cost and need to keep a sealed hermetic environment does not outweigh the benefits. Ultimately air cooled servers are more efficient and use less space in 1U rackmount configurations without the need for a condenser. Increasingly, for overclockers, it serves less purpose as it is not a good working fluid, and is prone to gelling. So you get water results at many times the price, difficulty, and encumberance.

It's fun and a cool idea. But also, insulation for sub zero methodologies has progressed incredibly in the last five years. Insulation is simple and does not place permanent marks upon motherboards and rarely results in damage with minimal preparation, something far from this configuration.

Sure is the power recoup nice? If you can produce high enough pressures for a regenerator, yes. Is it viable? Not really.
Also the fluid is often used with masks, as the effects of the fluoroether long term on lung tissue is not yet known or tested.
post #5 of 74
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoL View Post

I've used the original 3M solution.
The end result is the cost and need to keep a sealed hermetic environment does not outweigh the benefits. Ultimately air cooled servers are more efficient and use less space in 1U rackmount configurations without the need for a condenser. Increasingly, for overclockers, it serves less purpose as it is not a good working fluid, and is prone to gelling. So you get water results at many times the price, difficulty, and encumberance.
It's fun and a cool idea. But also, insulation for sub zero methodologies has progressed incredibly in the last five years. Insulation is simple and does not place permanent marks upon motherboards and rarely results in damage with minimal preparation, something far from this configuration.
Sure is the power recoup nice? If you can produce high enough pressures for a regenerator, yes. Is it viable? Not really.
Also the fluid is often used with masks, as the effects of the fluoroether long term on lung tissue is not yet known or tested.

This cooling method is much more efficient than any form of air cooling primarily in concerns to hardware density, and since I was able to produce 40+ psi with one server unit a substancial amount of power could be re-captured. And the method would improve with scaling since more vapor would be produced. The over advantage is that everything operates in a completely sealed loop, removing the step of cooling expelled server air with large HVAC installations. Yes, the chemical is dangerous if inhaled in large quantities, but if the installation was vented properly and sealed properly even if small leaks still ocurred there would be negligible risk at most. And novec 7000 as apposed to your "original 3m solution" is not prone to gelling, the only way gelling could occur is if particulate debris (dust etc) collects in the novec itself and collects while the novec boils away the "build up" could be confused for novec gel. And I'll upload the actual data I collected but in terms of decreasing the energy required to cool servers the novec setup is obviously more efficient. And this system is aimed at high density high load operation, not personal overclocking. And currently used glycol server cooling systems (used by the navy) are much more dangerous to human health than novec will ever be.

Thanks for your input but check your facts and whats being applied first.
post #6 of 74
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo2032 View Post

This is awesome! Is there any evidence that the HFE interacts with any of the insulators on the board? This reminds me of some of the oil immersion experiments and they always had trouble with the electrolytic capacitors seals being degraded by the mineral oil.
Keep up the good work!

In regards to interaction with motherboard components there was not much at all. Novec 7000 was developed to clean server hardware, so if you look up the msds as seen here the chemical does not react at all with most metals and common plastics used with computer hardware. In terms of the testing I did I did not observe any novec seeping into capacitors or any other components. Although I had similar interests in seeing how the novec would interact specifically with capacitors. I used some pcb sealant to seal the caps of certain capacitors and left other capacitors un sealed. There was no diference after the novec cooling system ran for over 48 hours straight. With further research I found that the biggest problem with novec 7000 primarily with cheaper foxconn produced server boards when novec gets behind certain IC's and pushes the components off the pcb after vapors build behind said components. Other than that all other components tested very well in the novec, even mosfets and other VRM circuitry.

Thanks for your positive feedback!

If you have any further in depth questions regarding my research post on this theread or PM me any time,
- Chmodlabs biggrin.gif
post #7 of 74
I get your pushing your product, but you might not want to be so callous. You might get input from the throw arounds (throw arounds; I mean, are the people in this section who post "can I put my computer in my fridge" topics five times a week), but the people with thermo degrees and years of experience might chime in if your more hospitable. As to your first claim, your system does not appear to be smaller then a 1U rackmount.

So let's hit your post shall we?
Quote:
This cooling method is much more efficient than any form of air cooling primarily in concerns to hardware density, and since I was able to produce 40+ psi with one server unit a substancial amount of power could be re-captured. And the method would improve with scaling since more vapor would be produced. The over advantage is that everything operates in a completely sealed loop, removing the step of cooling expelled server air with large HVAC installations. Yes, the chemical is dangerous if inhaled in large quantities, but if the installation was vented properly and sealed properly even if small leaks still ocurred there would be negligible risk at most. And novec 7000 as apposed to your "original 3m solution" is not prone to gelling, the only way gelling could occur is if particulate debris (dust etc) collects in the novec itself and collects while the novec boils away the "build up" could be confused for novec gel. And I'll upload the actual data I collected but in terms of decreasing the energy required to cool servers the novec setup is obviously more efficient. And this system is aimed at high density high load operation, not personal overclocking. And currently used glycol server cooling systems (used by the navy) are much more dangerous to human health than novec will ever be.

First
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=66666UuZjcFSLXTtlXftMxMVEVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--
Novec is based on 3M's fluorinert, with a slightly lower boiling point to serve as an R123 replacement in autocascades and "blast injection chillers", mainly due to it's lack of oil pocketing that is seen with r123. So it's pretty close to the same thing. Almost has the same visocosity pattern. The Novec is a little less so. But following its chart in the above manufacturing PDF, by -40C it wouldn't be doing any good.

So, 40psi to power a generator?
Not at anything more then theoretical gains, no. Most of the power you could harness would be in it's heat. A stirling engine and flywheel or static pendulum. That'd help you harness. But, neither of those systems are going to keep removing enough heat that you can simply say you aren't passing heat off to the environment to recondense the working fluid. So it's not replacing AC units. It's simply a separate medium. Same heat load is being applied to the environment. Yes some could be harnessed as energy, but for the most part, no. This isn't the land of theoretical no friction physics.

Also, 40psi is already more pressure then you'd want in one large standing tank, much less a server room of thousands of racks.

Back to the post.
You are fully cooling a server. Every little piece. Which is great for server life, if servers were prone to failure due to heat. But they aren't. Servers are designed and use the highest binned parts, and often run on forced air cooling alone. They're are no actual gains from cooling the mosfets to ~30C. There are no gains from cooling the ram additionally. There are no gains from cooling the power supply. These systems as is, meet their specifications, as they are produced; with air and fans and for the most part, simple aluminum heatsinks.

I'm not to worried about the health risk. So what the NAVY does isn't on this forum. Isn't being pitched, and isn't what we're discussing.

Servers are replaced before they fail, at their rated hour limits, sold and passed down the supply chain or retrofitted, and replaced. Your system does not actually provide a tangible positive effect as compared to the standard of the industry. Yes you added a working fluid that doesn't actually harm the chain. But it's simply another working fluid. If your point is that its easier to vent the heat from the building, it's probably not when you realize your going to have to refit all those buildings. And the cost of your fluid, watercooling systems could easily be employed if a medium is needed.

Additionally in working on your "generator" theory behind the pressure. You have no ability to create a pressure gradient and restriction. So you will end up needing to employ pumps in large installations, to and from the condenser.

I am approaching this in a friendly fashion to see if you've worked around the design limitations. Please respond as such. Ad hominem will get you no where. Mostly because I'm sitting beside a tank of R123 that Novec is designed to replace. And have worked with immersion systems for many years now.
Edited by NoL - 2/25/12 at 10:10am
post #8 of 74
Thread Starter 
Blade server installations still require a large amount of modification for the buildings where they are held (to account for the massive amounts of HVAC equipment). And again a cpu with no low profile heatsink is still more slim than the height profile of a 1u server unit. The biggest point here can be proved through the heat flux of the transfer media, Novec 7000 is 18 W /m2 and air is around 3 at best. In regards to the size of the test set up, well it's a test set up my intentions were to design a suitable coolant holding tank. In regards to the energy required to condense and transfer the novec there is only a 15C temperature delta from the novec vapor temperature to room temperature (tested at 27C) to start condensing the novec (novec was condensing actively in the coolant tank and while traveling through transfer lines, and theoretically the 20W peltier cooler I was using to condense the vapors easily handled the vapor load and the 40+ psi produced by the unit. This leads to my point that with more units more pressure could be harnessed and converted into energy, and if hardware is immersed properly that pressure will have no negative effect what so ever on the hardware. And although cooling vrm and memory does not result in performance increases cooling those components properly and actively increases their efficiency and reduces the overall power consumption of each unit. And even if fans for each 1u rack unit only consume 7w of power that multiplied by 400 units can become a fair amount of power not to mention again the secondary HVAC that is required. Immersion cooling also allows for server hardware to operate at higher clock speeds which specifically in super computing applications could be a large benefit. In regards to the cost of the fluid I have contacted 3M directly to address this problem. The cost is obviously driven up by a lack of demand, if a market started to develop for novec HFE's undoubtedly it's price per gallon would decrease substantially.

I appreciate your critical thoughts of my research.
- chmodlabs
post #9 of 74
Just to keep working on this then...
Servers will not be overclocked. Even at our "stable overclocks" CPU's and RAM inherently produce errors on the order of one cycle per hundred thousand. This is the main reason for ECC registered RAM. When they need more power, it's more lateral power, and they add more units.
The 40W peltier on your unit is not cooling the server on it's own. That's a bit of a silly thought. The heat has to leave the system. It's doing so through normal heat transfer through the peltier and other areas. Additionally, capacitors do not enjoy pressure.
While the CPU heatsink would reduce height, you still have RAM and other not so thin items. 1U is as thin as it is going to get.

And if I were you I'd pop a heatsink on there, little reason not to improve the results if it's within the standard form factor.

The point is though, you have created an elaborate system to do something that server could already do for it's entire lifetime. Server hardware doesn't overclock. Doesn't want to overclock. It just wants to live as long as possible and with as few issues. It's designed under high precision with high bin componentry. You have reinvented the wheel so to speak. Ultimately all heat produced needs to leave the system, the environment, and that means out through the change of gas back to liquid. The same loads, if not MORE, are going to be applied due to heat removal from areas that did not need active cooling.

There's no reason for it is the end effect.
post #10 of 74
wow. good discussion and interesting results. I'll never be able to use such a system, but I enjoyed the video thumb.gif
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AMD Transplant
(11 items)
 
To be a NAS
(13 items)
 
Death Kühler
(14 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
965BE GA-78LMT-S2P MSI TFIII 7950 Corsair Vengence 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung 830 Noctua NH-D14 Win7 Pro FX2490HD 
PowerCaseMouse
Seasonic X660 Antec Three Hundred Saitek Rat 7 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+ Gateway GM5072 AMD HD5550 2.0 Gb 
Hard DriveMonitorKeyboardPower
Seagate Barracuda 500Gb Samsung FX2490 MS Keyboard 3000 300w generic 
Mouse
MS Intellipoint 3000 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
2500k GigaByte Z68M-D2H-B3 MSI 560 Ti TFIII Corsair Vengance 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung 830 Antec Khuler 920 Win7 HP Samsung FX2490 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Microsoft Keyboard 3000 Seasonic X-660 Antec Three Hundred Microsoft Mouse 3000 
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