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[forbes]Do iOS Apps Crash More Than Android Apps? A Data Dive - Page 4

post #31 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post

That's what I'm thinking... if there's 100,000 different apps on iOS using the service, but only 10,000 on Android, wouldn't the diversity on iOS screw with the results? If they're the same 10000 apps, yeah, sure, but what if a whole lot more crapola on iOS subscribes to this app's service?
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post

Mmm... I'm not so sure about the test:
1) What apps subscribe to this service? Are they all the same? Or are there more/different ones on iOS?
2) Were any of these devices jail broken? Where any of these subscribed apps jail broken apps?
Quote:
That's surprising. I would have guessed that stability would be one of the things the Apple App Store people would look at before approving an app. If they're not screening apps for quality control, then why are they screening apps? Do they just reject the ones that are similar to products Apple intends to develop and profit from themselves sometime in the future?
They reject any app that mimics phone functionality such as a "phone app" however the screening is to prevent malware, apps using private APIs, trashy apps, etc.

Read the source completely. They took into account a great many things. The second graph shown is normalized, but iOS still accounts for the majority of crashes (even if you completely discount ALL iOS 5.0.0 and 5.0.1 devices). The sample size is 230,000,000, so the stats are likely to be very accurate. Further, any outliers were likely discarded making the number of apps insignificant (the couple of apps that always/almost always crashed would likely be factored out to keep from skewing the statistics).

No matter what the reasons are, the reality doesn't change and the reality is that Apple's walled garden is home to more bugs than Androids open market. If the problem is too many apps, then Apple is at fault for allowing them (and not testing them for bugs). If the problem is a buggy OS (as the data hints at heavily), then it is still Apple's fault for pushing out an unstable version (and doubly their fault because they only have 5 phones and 2 tablets vs the hundreds of Android devices).

As to jailbreaking/rooting, I would say that there are more android rooters than idevice jailbreakers. If custom firmware is the source of problems, then it stands to reason that Android statistics would suffer more than idevice statistics would.

From a software architecture point of view, most Android application crashes are also much less severe than iOS crashes. This is because the sandboxing provided by the Dalvik virtual machine (used by most apps, especially the crappy ones) is better than what iOS offers and the higher level Java-like language avoids a whole series of bugs that objective-C can have (the major trade-offs being performance and integration). If severity of Android crashes is less, then this would be another win for Android.

I don't particularly like iOS nor do I have any great love for Android, but the data speaks for itself.
post #32 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riou View Post

The same could be said of Windows vs. OSX. However, iOS is supposed to be highly curated so allegedly these issues would be minimal.
These issues aren't really something app screening will catch. It's more of a broad screening, checking whether your app opens, whether it's as its described, whether it uses private APIs or not, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ESP View Post

If the tests showed android crashing more you wouldn't have any doubts about the testing methodology. If apple has the resources to disallow "trashy" apps, then there is no excuse for allowing apps that crash. That is of course, unless iOS is simply inherently less stable.
I would have nothing (or little) to say only because I'm unfamiliar with Android whereas I know iOS well and these results just sound off to me. And as I said above, there's no way to screen apps for crashes like that. It's more of a broad screening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtypin View Post

OH LOOK ITS YOU. I remember you, crusader of the apple family crest.
LOL wut?
Quote:
Please, i've seen your other arguments on the threads whenever it comes to apple.
Don't try to say anything that states otherwise, any argument you make is always completely biased.
What's your point? I'm interested in and know a lot about Apple which is why I'll usually defend them. I like Android, but I don't know much about it so I can't really step in and correct misinformation, can I?
Quote:
The avatar does not help say that you can offer an unbiased opinion in any argument against apple.
I don't care. I like my avatar, and it's never changing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hajile View Post

Read the source completely. They took into account a great many things. The second graph shown is normalized, but iOS still accounts for the majority of crashes (even if you completely discount ALL iOS 5.0.0 and 5.0.1 devices). The sample size is 230,000,000, so the stats are likely to be very accurate. Further, any outliers were likely discarded making the number of apps insignificant (the couple of apps that always/almost always crashed would likely be factored out to keep from skewing the statistics).
I read the source from start to finish.

This is only comparing crashes upon launch and they note that out of the 214,000,000 million apps analyzed, that there was three times more app launches on iOS than on Android but they don't tell us how many different apps are using their service on each of the platforms. For all we know there's 100,000 apps on iOS using the service and only 10,000 on Android which would skew the results heavily because there's a lot more apps on iOS reporting their crashes than there is on Android. They also don't tell us what kind of apps are in each quartile for both platforms. And as I said they didn't mention whether or not jail broken apps or devices were included in this test.
Quote:
No matter what the reasons are, the reality doesn't change and the reality is that Apple's walled garden is home to more bugs than Androids open market. If the problem is too many apps, then Apple is at fault for allowing them (and not testing them for bugs). If the problem is a buggy OS (as the data hints at heavily), then it is still Apple's fault for pushing out an unstable version (and doubly their fault because they only have 5 phones and 2 tablets vs the hundreds of Android devices).
The screening process can prevent apps from being accepted that have private APIs, malware, obvious flaws, apps that don't open or aren't as described, but not ones with small bugs or errors. You also need to not forget that this test was done when iOS 5 was still relatively new, according to the article, and the writer also said that he'll expect the same from ICS when it's released. Oh and there's no evidence here to suggest that the errors are because of a buggy OS. It's quite clear that more crashes were happening on iOS 5 at that time but that doesn't mean iOS is buggy. I'd bet a lot of crashes-at-launch happened after iOS 3 was released, and after iOS 4 was released.
Quote:
As to jailbreaking/rooting, I would say that there are more android rooters than idevice jailbreakers. If custom firmware is the source of problems, then it stands to reason that Android statistics would suffer more than idevice statistics would.
Yet rooting and jail breaking are far from the same.
Quote:
From a software architecture point of view, most Android application crashes are also much less severe than iOS crashes. This is because the sandboxing provided by the Dalvik virtual machine (used by most apps, especially the crappy ones) is better than what iOS offers and the higher level Java-like language avoids a whole series of bugs that objective-C can have (the major trade-offs being performance and integration). If severity of Android crashes is less, then this would be another win for Android.
I don't particularly like iOS nor do I have any great love for Android, but the data speaks for itself.
Please, do elaborate. How exactly are they less severe? And what kind of bugs can Objective C have?
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post #33 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post

Yet rooting and jail breaking are far from the same.
They are? They both give you root access and allow modifications that the manufacturer/service provider lock out by default...
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post #34 of 55
Just to clarify, I at no point said these results were wrong, only that I question them based on such and such reasons -- that's hardly any evidence to suggest I'm biased. The kind of information I want from this test on top of what they've provided is as follows:

1) Whether jail broken apps and devices were analyzed in this test.

I know little of the effects of rooting a droid so I can't speak of that, but jail breaking allows the user to modify the OS which can cause instability. Developers also are able to use private APIs in their apps, which isn't allowed on the App Store. The reason why private APIs aren't allowed, is because if Apple changes a private API in an OS release, then all apps using it will break and crash. According to the article, iOS 5 was relatively new at the time, so it's quite possible that some private APIs changed and that some jail broken apps were crashing. Such statistics could skew the results.

2) How many apps are using the Crittercism service on both iOS and Android.

3) The average amount of apps present that are using the Crittercism service, on devices, on both iOS and Android.

4) The average of total app launches per device, on both iOS and Android.

That gives me a very thorough view of what's happening and from that one is able to accurately say which has more crashes. Without that information, it's full of holes. I shall provide a simple example:

Let's say that iOS has 100,000 apps using Crittercism, and Android only has 10,000. That means that it's far more likely that iOS users will have more apps using the service on their device and consequently, more crashes on iOS devices will be reported. Your average iDevice user may have ten to fifteen apps installed which are reporting to Crittercism, whereas your average droid user may only have five. Additionally, your average iDevice user may be launching apps far more often than your average droid user -- especially if that iDevice user has more apps using the service. All these things can skew the results heavily.

I'm not saying that iOS apps crash less than Android, what I'm saying is I don't think you can judge that on this test.
Edited by steelbom - 2/5/12 at 8:25pm
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post #35 of 55
Hajile, you've clearly never developed using Objective-C if you say it has 'loads of bugs'. It's just C but more Object Oriented, and C is the most widely used programming language to date. I'm programming iPhone Apps as we speak (it's what I do for a job) and I can tell you that out of all the languages I have experience using (yes, including Java), Objective-C is by far the easiest and least limited I've worked with. You're misinformed.

I don't mean to flame, and don't mistake this for a flame post, I'm just saying that you shouldn't try to state facts that aren't fact.
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post #36 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post

Steelbom's and ThreadViewers' arguments go out the window. More proof that they have no credibility.
I wonder what the difference is between OSX and Windows.
I think your post is quite ridiculous considering I'm not actually saying that iOS crashes less, only that this test has too many holes to be proof of anything, which is quite a reasonable thing to say.
Quote:
Just because you can doesn't mean it will. That's a simple logic fail.
I never said it WILL, just that it CAN. Thanks for stating the obvious.
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post #37 of 55
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post

I read the source from start to finish.
This is only comparing crashes upon launch and they note that out of the 214,000,000 million apps analyzed, that there was three times more app launches on iOS than on Android but they don't tell us how many different apps are using their service on each of the platforms. For all we know there's 100,000 apps on iOS using the service and only 10,000 on Android which would skew the results heavily because there's a lot more apps on iOS reporting their crashes than there is on Android. They also don't tell us what kind of apps are in each quartile for both platforms. And as I said they didn't mention whether or not jail broken apps or devices were included in this test.

All charts but the first are normalized to account for differences in the amount of users. With that many app launches in just 15 days, you can rest assured that the apps monitored range from very popular to somewhat popular with many apps being identical between the two platforms (one company releasing on both platforms and using the same company for monitoring), the exact apps do not matter. Only the trend of the graph matters.

The screening process can prevent apps from being accepted that have private APIs, malware, obvious flaws, apps that don't open or aren't as described, but not ones with small bugs or errors. You also need to not forget that this test was done when iOS 5 was still relatively new, according to the article, and the writer also said that he'll expect the same from ICS when it's released. Oh and there's no evidence here to suggest that the errors are because of a buggy OS. It's quite clear that more crashes were happening on iOS 5 at that time but that doesn't mean iOS is buggy. I'd bet a lot of crashes-at-launch happened after iOS 3 was released, and after iOS 4 was released.

Even if iOS 5.0.0 and 5.0.1 are removed from the picture, iOS still has more crashes as compared with Android. I would love to see numbers on ICS crashes, but I suspect that it won't be as big of a problem because developers will have had opportunity to work with ICS for a couple of months before any other ICS devices hit the market.

Yet rooting and jail breaking are far from the same.

How is jailbreaking different from rooting and how can the difference affect system stability? Jailbreaking is using an exploit to allow the running of unsigned code. Rooting is using an exploit to allow superuser privileges. The difference is mild except that installing a completely new OS atop an existing kernel (as is often done with Android) can be much more dangerous than running unsigned apps on an idevice.

Please, do elaborate. How exactly are they less severe? And what kind of bugs can Objective C have?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jNSK View Post

Hajile, you've clearly never developed using Objective-C if you say it has 'loads of bugs'. It's just C but more Object Oriented, and C is the most widely used programming language to date. I'm programming iPhone Apps as we speak (it's what I do for a job) and I can tell you that out of all the languages I have experience using (yes, including Java), Objective-C is by far the easiest and least limited I've worked with. You're misinformed.
I don't mean to flame, and don't mistake this for a flame post, I'm just saying that you shouldn't try to state facts that aren't fact.
Wide usage has nothing to do with the merits of a language (Java is proof of this).

OT:If objective-C is the best you've worked with, I highly recommend that you try a functional language like Lisp or Haskell. You'll never view easy to work with the same way again (that is...if you have what it take to think functionally).

Back on topic: I should clarify my statement. One of the largest considerations no matter the language is the programmer. Beyond that, assuming equally good, but imperfect programmers as most humans are (aside from the occasional Real Programmer), the next consideration is the differing kinds of potential bugs. When I said 'loads more bugs', I meant 'loads more potential for bugs'.

In programming (as you likely well know) there is a trade-off of ease with greater performance and potential for disaster. Even today, lots of performance can be gained from assembly programming/tweaking, but there's huge potential for mistakes. For nearly everything, the small loss in performance is taken for fewer bugs and easier development. Similarly, the change from C to C++ or objective-C is a tradeoff (in normal situations) of more power for easier development via OOP. Even within objective-C, there is the potential for a tradeoff where performance is given up for defensive programming methods.

Java makes two major tradeoffs that aren't made by objective-C (one of them is, but not for idevices). The first is the elimination of direct pointer manipulation. While some power is given up, an entire (and huge) category of bugs is eliminated. The second is where direct memory management is given up for garbage collection. This also eliminates a huge category of bugs.

So here's the logic. If objective-C has most/all the same bug categories as Java and then also has two additional (and major) categories of bugs, then there will be more bugs in an objective-C program assuming programmers of equal talent working on similar projects. Despite this bug potential, the objective-C program will likely have better performance.
Edited by hajile - 2/5/12 at 10:30pm
post #38 of 55
I've never had force-close (crash) issues with Vanilla android & android market apps, it's when I started using 3rd part roms and apps that I noticed a couple of FC's.
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post #39 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by hajile View Post

Wide usage has nothing to do with the merits of a language (Java is proof of this).
OT:If objective-C is the best you've worked with, I highly recommend that you try a functional language like Lisp or Haskell. You'll never view easy to work with the same way again (that is...if you have what it take to think functionally).
Back on topic: I should clarify my statement. One of the largest considerations no matter the language is the programmer. Beyond that, assuming equally good, but imperfect programmers as most humans are (aside from the occasional Real Programmer), the next consideration is the differing kinds of potential bugs. When I said 'loads more bugs', I meant 'loads more potential for bugs'.
In programming (as you likely well know) there is a trade-off of ease with greater performance and potential for disaster. Even today, lots of performance can be gained from assembly programming/tweaking, but there's huge potential for mistakes. For nearly everything, the small loss in performance is taken for fewer bugs and easier development. Similarly, the change from C to C++ or objective-C is a tradeoff (in normal situations) of more power for easier development via OOP. Even within objective-C, there is the potential for a tradeoff where performance is given up for defensive programming methods.
Java makes two major tradeoffs that aren't made by objective-C (one of them is, but not for idevices). The first is the elimination of direct pointer manipulation. While some power is given up, an entire (and huge) category of bugs is eliminated. The second is where direct memory management is given up for garbage collection. This also eliminates a huge category of bugs.
So here's the logic. If objective-C has most/all the same bug categories as Java and then also has two additional (and major) categories of bugs, then there will be more bugs in an objective-C program assuming programmers of equal talent working on similar projects. Despite this bug potential, the objective-C program will likely have better performance.

Now that is a better post to reason with. I never said Objective C was the best, I just said you can't fault it as much as you appeared to originally. Again, not flaming. The fact of the matter is that in the real world, languages like the ones you mentioned are functional, granted, but in terms of use for development (let's take iOS for example), they're limited in the sense of widespread use.
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post #40 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by FORBES.com 
392
Am i the only one who thinks using a pie chart to represent this data was a really bad idea?

In any case, i think the main reason for fewer crashes on android is android users are more likely to update their apps, and updates are pushed out far quicker(because google doesn't have to approve them). I really don't think it is the OSes at fault, just the different market methodologies. Not a big issue overall though, because the article itself stated crashes accounted for less than 4% of app opens on both iOS and android.
Edited by qwertymac93 - 2/5/12 at 11:56pm
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