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[ctv]Canadian-made HIV vaccine approved for human testing - Page 8

post #71 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpriest667 View Post

I dont know what you're on but you need to stop it.
You realize that new polio cases have dropped from a MILLION a year to about 1000 a year EARTH WIDE.. Thats largely 1000 people who AREN'T VACCINATED. Good lord.
The people in England Contracting MEASLES are largely immigrants who weren't vaccinated.

lol, polio is way more widespread, not that most would notice as it typicall resolves in like 99% of cases with flu like symptoms.

Measales is high even in the vaccinated populations, I might suggest you take off the blinders on this one. Virus's mutate
post #72 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by KittensMewMew View Post

I'm not sure if you're trolling or just that ignorant. The amount of basic science ignorance on this tech forum is astounding at times.
HIV (Human Immunodeficiency Virus) is a virus that causes AIDS (Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome). When you contract HIV, you get flu-like symptoms about 10 days later that last a few weeks, then the virus goes into a latent phase until the point where the virus has almost completely killed all of your CD4+ lymphocytes 7-9 years later, and then you begin to get opportunistic infections. No one dies of HIV or AIDS. They die of pneumonia. They die of rapidly progressing cancer. They die of autoimmune disorders.

I am fully aware of the actual science of vaccines, show me differential gold standard double blind testing.

I'll be waiting
Quote:
A vaccine is administered to prevent infection by a certain disease, and it's usually made of live attenuated virus- virus particles that cannot reproduce in our cells but will be caught by our immune system in our lymph nodes, which will then begin an adaptive response. Once introduced to the vaccine, our body is primed for that virus- we will elicit a much stronger immune response when we come into contact with said virus. Without the vaccine we have no chance and will develop full-blown symptoms of the virus. Polio, Measles, Hepatitis, Rabies, Yellow Fever... the list goes on and on. These vaccines are effective. Don't be ignorant and say otherwise.

yet all those things still exist, most are largely benign in nature mind a few.
Quote:
A placebo is a drug that has all of the fillers and binders of the regular drug, but none of the active ingredient. It is used to study against a baseline- does the drug have that much of an effect as compared to the power of suggestion? If not, the drug isn't that effective. Do people on the real drug experience side-effects the placebo group doesn't? If yes, the drug needs warning labels. The placebo group receives the drug after a certain amount of time has past, to again show the difference between the real thing and the placebo.

wow, dictionary new around here ?
Quote:
So we now arrive to my issue. Phase 1 they are testing people with HIV to rule if the drug has side effects. Phase 2 they are then testing a small group to see if it's safe and doesn't revert to HIV (VERY UNLIKELY, SO HIGHLY UNLIKELY THAT IT'S A NON-ISSUE) or cause other issues in those infected with HIV. Phase 3 they are then giving the safe vaccine to 3000 people and a placebo to 3000 people. When has a placebo in a vaccine study ever resulted in anything other than infected people who didn't need to be infected. What baseline are they testing against other than established disease models?
I don't care what population segment they use. Giving protection to some and not to others is wrong. If they give the vaccine to everyone and under 0.5% get the disease, the vaccine is a success. Past HIV vaccine studies end with about a 7% infection rate (no HIV vaccine has been found yet) as compared to their placebo 7% infection rate. Let's just take those numbers and reuse them.


HIV is fully preventable. Don't have unprotected sex with strangers, and don't share needles. This is a solution looking for a problem.There is also a segment of the population that is naturally immune fo HIV, and using measales to treat cancer, thats pretty damned interesting to.
post #73 of 94
im not sure what kittens is trying to prove?

you seem to be having trouble grasping the concept of "voluntary" and "placebo" in regards to what medical trials are for. these people know what theyre signing up for, and are obviously prepared to deal with any consequences that may come out of it. you cant do a trial without a control group, how do you propose they have a control group? or should everyone just know what the side effects will be and what the placebo effects will be? yes there is the blatantly obvious "well the placebo guys will get infected," but its much more than that. as mentioned the side effect of the drug will be monitored and the effects of what people on the placebo say they are noticing.

ever heard of the phrase "sacrifice the few to save the many" ? this sorta runs along those lines.

im going to compare the gist of your argument to joining the army. you say these volunteers shouldnt get a placebo even though they'll be told exactly what the risks are of this test for "ethical reasons". does that mean someone who joins the army voluntarily, they shouldnt be sent to combat for ethical reasons?
    
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post #74 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by KittensMewMew View Post

The ethical issues behind testing HIV vaccinations are fascinating. "Here, have an HIV vaccine that we're testing, we don't know if it's 100% effective, but you should have unprotected sex and make as many blood brothers/sisters as possible to see if our vaccine works! Bleed on people! Let them bleed on you! It worked for the guinea pigs, now you get to be the guinea pigs! Science!"

None of this is implied or encouraged. Indeed, such a change behavior would damage the results of the trial.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KittensMewMew View Post

I'm glad they have developed a vaccine, but the public backlash against this will be tremendous.
The harshest thing you've ever read.

Hardly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by matty0610 View Post

Yep that's the problem within those 3 years, those people could die. I would think they would be told to discontinue any current HIV medication so they would be 100% its the vaccine working and not the medicine interfering. Of course they never tell those who are taking the placebo that they are and that they must follow everything the real vaccine takers are doing. Including but not limited discontinuing the meds the are helping them currently.

This vaccine (like most) is for people who are not infected yet.

Vaccines rarely cure, they prevent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by matty0610 View Post

I think the problem is, is why does there need to be a placebo pill?

Dumb question.

Without a control group to compare to, there is no way of telling exactly how useful the vaccine is. The placebo group needs to behave the same way as the vaccinated group, so they can be compared.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KittensMewMew View Post

When has a placebo in a vaccine study ever resulted in anything other than infected people who didn't need to be infected. What baseline are they testing against other than established disease models?

Informing people they are part of a trial may well skew their behavior. So you need to compare the vaccine to others in the trail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KittensMewMew View Post

Giving protection to some and not to others is wrong.

No one knows for certain how effective this vaccine is yet.

If things were done your way, we'd never know, and everyone could be left unprotected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

I don't get the testing of this...
So they are giving it to a group that is considered high risk for getting HIV and then we are going to see if any of them develop HIV? Ummmm...if they know they are at risk for getting HIV won't they likely start to be more careful? I mean, what happens if none of them have unprotected sex, share needles, be exposed to a HIV positive blood spill, or any other source of getting the disease? It will be called a success?
And if it was successful, is it really a better situation for these types of situations to be OK? The good old methods of education or still probably the best way to go about this...HIV is the one disease I would rather there never be a vaccine for, a cure, sure...but not a vaccine. It should never be OK to live that kind of life style. Though it would be amazing for something like to be given out to health care providers...maybe fields of work were there is high chances of injury. Even then it doesn't matter if I knew 100% that I was immune to HIV...I wouldn't stick my hands in some one's blood without gloves. There is more than HIV out there. So it really wouldn't change anything, but add a secondary safety net.
Though if they could get it to some places in Africa it might be a good thing...there are places where they are giving out condoms and people will throw them away or believe that if they use them they will be made sterile or something. HIV is really running rampant in some communities there.


1. Find people in an at-risk group. (for HIV this is people of a certain age, in certain areas, who are prone to do certain things, based on demographical statistics).

2. Ask them if they want to be part of a trial (probably with some form of compensation.

3. If they agree, tell them that they may either get a vaccine or a placebo, but that they won't know which.

4. After receiving one or the other, send them on their way.

5. Call them back in a few years. If the infection rate is notably lower among the vaccine group, the vaccine has some effect. If it's not, it doesn't work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcoffin1981 View Post

This is the problem with vaccinating for many viruses. In theory, once infected with the flu you should never get it again. However, every year there is a new strain which as far as the body is concerned is a brand new virus. And then of course a new vaccine follows.

The Flu is a collection of symptoms. There is no one influenza virus, there are dozens, if not hundreds. The reason flu viruses are not always effective is because it's not feasible to create and maintain vaccines for all of the various strains of orthomyxoviridae. So, they make vaccines for the more common/dangerous ones, in an effort to give at least some blanket resistance, which tends to reduce the rate and severity of infection (or would, if they were given at the right times to the right people).

Anywa, anyone who questions the overall utility of vaccination is a willfully ignorant fool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCollins View Post

HIV is fully preventable. Don't have unprotected sex with strangers, and don't share needles. This is a solution looking for a problem.

Might want to add: don't be born to an HIV infected mother, don't get a blood transfusion if you are one of the several billion people who don't have access to first rate medical services, and don't perform any medical procedures where there is any risk of contamination, unless expensive retrovirals are on hand.

Yeah, fully preventable my ass...
Edited by Blameless - 2/6/12 at 10:52pm
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post #75 of 94
I understand how a drug trial works, I just don't understand the point of a placebo group in this study. The rate of infection in specific groups is known. Why do you even need a baseline to compared to? If we gave 6000 people the confirmed to be safe vaccine (not necessarily effective), couldn't we just use these stats: http://www.aidsvancouver.org/content/hiv-statistics? That took me 3 seconds to find. I'm sure they have different statistics sorted by sexual orientation, lifestyle, socioeconomic status etc. What is the point of doing a double blind study if you already know the statistics for rate of infection?

Getting a vaccine for HIV is not likely to change your lifestyle drastically- when you got your tetanus booster did you not clean any wound that you had? Before you got the flu vaccine did you wear a particulate mask and take it off immediately after? If you've had the HPV vaccine, did you have your partner wear a condom and don't you still? Did you avoid sketchy restaurant on your trips to tropical places and ask for no ice regardless of your hepatitis vaccination status? The whole point of vaccines is to be as unobtrusive as possible so we don't end up with viruses that are potentially life-threatening.

A potential HIV vaccine isn't going to change how people act- they won't go from wearing a condom to not wearing a condom. If they were careful before, they'll be careful after. If they weren't, they will continue to be careless. Which is why established statistics can and should be used for this study- there is no point in a placebo group in vaccine studies with such a life-altering disease. At Phase 3 they know the vaccine is safe in uninfected humans, so with a potential vaccine why risk any humans. If it works enough to be called a vaccine for HIV, the results will be clear, placebo or not.
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post #76 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by KittensMewMew View Post

1.There is no such thing as placebo effect in vaccine studies. Vaccines are preemptive, not treatment. You get a vaccine for the flu, get coughed on a lot, and still don't get the flu because your body already has antibodies present that tag cells infected with the virus immediately which allows your macrophages and Killer T cells to attach and kill the infected cell. This is no different. If your body doesn't have the primer, it doesn't have the protection. I know the point of double-blind trials, I took microbiology and biochemistry in university and had to learn how drug trials are set up. I understand the scientific reason for doing it this way. I just don't understand how it got past a ethics committee.

Because it's not asking people to do anything different than what they're already doing in their high-risk lifestyles.
post #77 of 94
Thread Starter 
Well now I have a question. What if no one placebo or not gets HIV within the 3 years? How do you tell if the vaccine actually worked? Would there be anti-bodies or something in the body that fights HIV?

What if no one got it and there weren't any anti-bodies? Then how do you the vaccine works short of injecting them with HIV?
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post #78 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by OwnedINC View Post

Because it's not asking people to do anything different than what they're already doing in their high-risk lifestyles.

The ethical conundrum is I'm raising is not providing the at-risk people with potential protection, but wanting the ideal scientific results. This is pushing science before people, because if it's 80% effective and good enough to be called a vaccine, then you will see a very clear disparity between established statistics and the vaccinated people and there would be no need to have a placebo group. And if it isn't 80%+ effective after phase 2, why are you testing it in phase 3?

I know a double blind trial is necessary, it just doesn't sit right with me that people that could be vaccinated aren't because statistics aren't good enough to convince drug companies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by matty0610 View Post

Well now I have a question. What if no one placebo or not gets HIV within the 3 years? How do you tell if the vaccine actually worked? Would there be anti-bodies or something in the body that fights HIV?
What if no one got it and there weren't any anti-bodies? Then how do you the vaccine works short of injecting them with HIV?

That would be statistically impossible over the course of 3 years in an at-risk group. Either the HIV vaccine in some degree works and the placebo group has a higher infection rate than the vaccinees, or the infection rates between the two groups are highly similar.

Look at these charts, http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm you can see the exact demographics.
Edited by KittensMewMew - 2/7/12 at 1:58am
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post #79 of 94
in an area where there are a lot of unknowns and/or headway still needs to be made the statistics found by someone else are never used as hard proof. people running experiments on ANYTHING will use the statistics THEY find. The point of trials and experiments in any field is to show what YOU found. not piecemeal random statistics from previous tests/trials run by other people and then fill in the blanks with the tests/trials you do. that's probably the most flawed design possible. that leaves way too many variables and possible misinformation. when you start by working from the ground up, you know that the stats found in your experiment were found under your design, environment, rules and procedures.
    
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post #80 of 94
and if it does work, canadians wouldnt have to foreclose their homes to get it, probably better americans didnt develop this first or we'll probably just use it to drive up stock for HMO's and pfizer
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