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OCN - Why do we not have this already? - Page 3

post #21 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by guyladouche View Post

Wouldn't matter to me if it's within this thread or another one. But it might be nice to update the OP with the progress so far?
The one thing that might complicate this more is that, let's take the example of MS Excel. Some functions/operations in Excel are multi-threaded, whereas others are not, so depending on the specific application of Excel, it may be difficult to generalize extent of CPU core utilization. Maybe that's putting the cart ahead of the horse though...
I know it might be outside of the scope, but would it also be useful to indicate whether an application on the list can also take advantage of GPU-acceleration? Maybe indicate the extent or brand of GPU necessary?

I started another thread for basic input, to figure out what is commonly used among a 'sample' of users here on OCN.

For now I won't worry too much about intricacies of Excel (or other applications that may use multiple threads only in certain instances within that application). At the moment I first need user input.

And as Duckie was nice enough to answer for me, to figure some of this out I (and others hopefully who may help out) will need to run benchmarks on a base OS (Windows 7 only for now) and submit to running them with disabling of cores (for identification).

Even then it's not going to fully represent what we're looking for but it will largely narrow down the results and provide a base of the idea we're trying to create. I'll update the OP too here in just a few. smile.gif

As for the GPU side of it, we'll have to leave that out for now. Once a base line is determined then perhaps we can contribute more to it with a GPU-sided addition to the 'list' if you will. tongue.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by videoman5 View Post

I love your idea, but that's not how threads work. Threads are, for a lack of a better definition, a program within a program. A thread might handle a large task, and a thread might handle a simple task like "Is the ESC key pressed right now? Y/N?". Most (90+%) programs you run have multiple threads, but usually when people say "single threaded" they mean "One big, computation-heavy thread, and a bunch of smaller ones".
TL;DR: Multi-thread != multi-core.

Right, I realized that after posting and had to have some answers given to me from a few questions I had. What I'm aiming to do now is:

A) Create a list of user-generated input on what programs are commonly found among our users's daily activities on their PC's
B) Benchmark the most commonly used programs on single core, dual, triple, or more and so on ( to see which can benefit from more than a single core, or more)
C) Extrapolate the results into a list that can be used in reference to hardware purchasing.

Hopefully I can get enough interest in this to get this going. I'm figuring a rough estimate of at least 50 responses (in my 'input' thread) to be a thin but relative margin of what programs are used and go from there.
Edited by GanjaSMK - 2/7/12 at 10:04am
    
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post #22 of 31
To be honest, this is not really feasible.

You will have to isolate:
CPU type/architecture..... and their variation (i.e. TurboBoost, cache sizes)
Clock
Core Count (SMP/CMT enabled?)
RAM clocks, in case of bottleneck
RAM size, in case of bottleneck
GPU performance, in case of bottleneck or off-loading
GPU type, off-loading differs between architecture and series.
OS and current patches (i.e. Scheduler patches will have impact)
Benchmark current version (Patches sometimes improve performance)
Benchmark methodology (some programs benefit from multi-threading only in some sections)


That is quite a few variables to isolate. You will not be able to tease out clear performance gains without having a good understanding of what everything impacts. In addition, the results are not a clear yes or no.... they tend to be a percentage gain.

If you want to do this... Your best bet to is start compiling data from the hundred of existing reviews.
Edited by DuckieHo - 2/7/12 at 10:12am
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post #23 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by videoman5 View Post

I love your idea, but that's not how threads work. Threads are, for a lack of a better definition, a program within a program. A thread might handle a large task, and a thread might handle a simple task like "Is the ESC key pressed right now? Y/N?". Most (90+%) programs you run have multiple threads, but usually when people say "single threaded" they mean "One big, computation-heavy thread, and a bunch of smaller ones".
TL;DR: Multi-thread != multi-core.

Multi-threaded =! parallel threading in terms of taking advantage of multiple CPU cores simultaneously though. Some programs will only ID one CPU core to use, hence they are single-core applications. That's what the objective of this list (and subsequent CPU benchmarks) is.

Does it matter though? If the goal is to indicate how the use or performance of a program scales with added physical or virtual cores, it doesn't matter how the program's thread handling works. I think the gist is to come up with a list of commonly used programs by people on OCN that people consistently mention in terms of considering a new CPU. This way they can see the list, and then check out the core scaling for that program. I have no handle on how MS Word implements its thread handling, but Office can definitely utilize multiple CPU cores simultaneously.
    
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post #24 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

To be honest, this is not really feasible.
You will have to isolate:
CPU type/architecture..... and their variation (i.e. TurboBoost, cache sizes)
Clock
Core Count (SMP/CMT enabled?)
RAM clocks, in case of bottleneck
RAM size, in case of bottleneck
GPU, in case of bottleneck or off-loading
OS and current patches (i.e. Scheduler patches will have impact)
Benchmark current version (Patches sometimes improve performance)
Benchmark methodology (some programs benefit from multi-threading only in some sections)
That is quite a few variables to isolate. You will not be able to tease out clear performance gains without having a good understanding of what everything impacts. In addition, the results are not a clear yes or no.... they tend to be a percentage gain.
If you want to do this... Your best bet to is start compiling data from the hundred of existing reviews.

frown.gif

Well so much for the idea then.

Which reviews would you recommend starting at?
    
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post #25 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by GanjaSMK View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

To be honest, this is not really feasible.
You will have to isolate:
CPU type/architecture..... and their variation (i.e. TurboBoost, cache sizes)
Clock
Core Count (SMP/CMT enabled?)
RAM clocks, in case of bottleneck
RAM size, in case of bottleneck
GPU, in case of bottleneck or off-loading
OS and current patches (i.e. Scheduler patches will have impact)
Benchmark current version (Patches sometimes improve performance)
Benchmark methodology (some programs benefit from multi-threading only in some sections)
That is quite a few variables to isolate. You will not be able to tease out clear performance gains without having a good understanding of what everything impacts. In addition, the results are not a clear yes or no.... they tend to be a percentage gain.
If you want to do this... Your best bet to is start compiling data from the hundred of existing reviews.

frown.gif

Well so much for the idea then.

Which reviews would you recommend starting at?

I don't think we need to get that detailed, although we could if we wanted too. I think that we could just generalize it a little:

Program Name:
- Recommended # threads
- Recommended Speed (this would need to be really simplified, I'm well aware of Bulldozer being ~1 GHz higher for same performance)
- Recommended RAM
- Benefits from SSD?
- Internet required?
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post #26 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by axipher View Post

I don't think we need to get that detailed, although we could if we wanted too. I think that we could just generalize it a little:
Program Name:
- Recommended # threads
- Recommended Speed (this would need to be really simplified, I'm well aware of Bulldozer being ~1 GHz higher for same performance)
- Recommended RAM
- Benefits from SSD?
- Internet required?

Even that is fairly detailed - I was more on the intent to essentially combine usage like this (which would be the end result of all this):


If you use x, y, and z on a daily basis, those particular programs/apps/games frequently are capable of using X amount of resources (namely core count was my intention) so X CPU would offer you more benefit than Y CPU in that particular instance.

I suppose it's obvious that architecture of the CPU may benefit certain settings in a more advanced way like AVX or FM4, etc; but I was mainly trying to pin down a bit on multi-core usage over anything else. Namely in that H.264 encoding probably benefits more from increased core count than it would less (ie: h.264 encoding on a daily basis would benefit more from an 1100T (or any AMD X6) as opposed to an i3 w/ HT). thinking.gif
    
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post #27 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by GanjaSMK View Post

Even that is fairly detailed - I was more on the intent to essentially combine usage like this (which would be the end result of all this):


If you use x, y, and z on a daily basis, those particular programs/apps/games frequently are capable of using X amount of resources (namely core count was my intention) so X CPU would offer you more benefit than Y CPU in that particular instance.

I suppose it's obvious that architecture of the CPU may benefit certain settings in a more advanced way like AVX or FM4, etc; but I was mainly trying to pin down a bit on multi-core usage over anything else. Namely in that H.264 encoding probably benefits more from increased core count than it would less (ie: h.264 encoding on a daily basis would benefit more from an 1100T (or any AMD X6) as opposed to an i3 w/ HT). thinking.gif

So maybe a list of tasks, associate each with a minimum processor from both sides and amount of RAM

- Youtube G620 / Athlon X2 - 1 GB
- H.264 encoding i5-2500 / X6 1100T - 4 GB
- Rendering i7-2600k / X6 1100T - 8 GB

Just rough estimates, but something like that could work, and order it on lowest to highest. So a person looks down the list for the most resource heavy task they plan to do more than 50% of the time and that's the rough minimum they should look for in a system.
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post #28 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by axipher View Post

So maybe a list of tasks, associate each with a minimum processor from both sides and amount of RAM
- Youtube G620 / Athlon X2 - 1 GB
- H.264 encoding i5-2500 / X6 1100T - 4 GB
- Rendering i7-2600k / X6 1100T - 8 GB
Just rough estimates, but something like that could work, and order it on lowest to highest. So a person looks down the list for the most resource heavy task they plan to do more than 50% of the time and that's the rough minimum they should look for in a system.

Mmmm... That is enticing. thumb.gif

Care to help me work this out? tongue.gif
    
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post #29 of 31
I am helping, I started the list hehe.
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post #30 of 31
Is this idea still on? If so I might as well give you some info to get you started.

Software: Blender 3D v2.5 and up
Threading characteristics: Viewport and physics calculations single threaded. Render engine uses unlimited amount of cores to the fullest.
CPU: The faster the better but will run on even old P4's
ram: The more the better but will run on very little ram. I personally would try and get at least 4GB
    
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i7 920 OC 4.0 GHz 1.35v HT on Asus P6T 1366 SLI Gigabyte GTX 970 OCZ 12GB DDR3 GOLD/Platinum mix 
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Samsung Spinpoint F1 1TB Western digital 300GB Western digital Caviar Blue 1TB Samsung 840 EVO 250Gb 
Optical DriveCoolingOSMonitor
generic LG DVD WC'd , Supreme LT, NexXxoS Xtreme III 360, Phob... Windows 7 x64 Samsung 27" LED S27A550B 
MonitorMonitorKeyboardPower
ACER 23" x233H Dell U3415W Logitech G11 Chieftec 850W 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Phanteks enthoo luxe Razer deathAdder respawn steelseries Qck Yamaha HTR-6130 AV Receiver 
AudioAudio
Yamaha NS-50B floor tower speakers miditech Audiolink II stereo sound card 
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Overclock.net › Forums › General Hardware › General Processor Discussions › OCN - Why do we not have this already?