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[ars] How close are we to truly photorealistic, real-time games? - Page 8

post #71 of 111
Nowhere?
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post #72 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by icanhasburgers View Post

Gran Turismo 5 in photo mode or on-the-go photo mode can produce EXTREMELY convincing results. Perhaps a properly coded GT6 game on a PS4 could produce real-time, fully playable versions of that at the usual 60fps 1080p.
Below is a picture in GT5 i took myself that i found quite convincing.
338

^
This
Quote:
Originally Posted by guyladouche View Post

But the thing is that the car is a static object.
    
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post #73 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Of course, but the point is that multithreading increase complexity exponentially. There are more possible states which leads to more possible test scenarios. Contention and state machine considerations are not issues with single-threaded processes.

I wasn't talking singlethreaded processes either. It's just a matter of identifying dependancies and the ability to split the tasks to be done into smaller problems and properly synchronize those identified dependancies. That's what I meant by a pre-emptive approach. Multithreaded servers by nature would be more complex as more threads (connections) are active, but in reality it's not more complex. Like said, it's a matter of identifying/designing dependancies around tasks such way to balance out synchronization with independant execution. But ah well, this goes a bit too far into detail.

The actual biggest problem with multithreading isn't skill, but the nature of the task one's trying to implement. Highly sequential processes by nature are difficult or impossible to multithread. Databases are an example where multithreading yields near maximum benefit. Games not so much as these are pretty much sequential in their execution. As said before, games manage to separate out audio, video and core execution into separate threads but that's where it ends for most games. Then indeed you have the CPU intensive games, but as the adjective suggests, these are worth to be multithreaded because there'll be sufficient independant load to make it worthwile.

Technology unfortunately doesn't change the problem, it only helps to an extent to ease dealing with the problem (Sequentiality, if that's even a word lol)
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post #74 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicBox View Post

I wasn't talking singlethreaded processes either. It's just a matter of identifying dependancies and the ability to split the tasks to be done into smaller problems and properly synchronize those identified dependancies. That's what I meant by a pre-emptive approach. Multithreaded servers by nature would be more complex as more threads (connections) are active, but in reality it's not more complex. Like said, it's a matter of identifying/designing dependancies around tasks such way to balance out synchronization with independant execution. But ah well, this goes a bit too far into detail.
The actual biggest problem with multithreading isn't skill, but the nature of the task one's trying to implement. Highly sequential processes by nature are difficult or impossible to multithread. Databases are an example where multithreading yields near maximum benefit. Games not so much as these are pretty much sequential in their execution. As said before, games manage to separate out audio, video and core execution into separate threads but that's where it ends for most games. Then indeed you have the CPU intensive games, but as the adjective suggests, these are worth to be multithreaded because there'll be sufficient independant load to make it worthwile.
Technology unfortunately doesn't change the problem, it only helps to an extent to ease dealing with the problem (Sequentiality, if that's even a word lol)

Yes, but they are working on multithreading things that would normally be sequential, like a for loop within a for loop. If the compiler can identify that the running of the inner loop will not affect the contents of the outer loop or itself, then it can break out each outer loop, pass it to a different thread, and run them all simultaneously. Of course, it would depend on the complexity of the loop itself, and you would have to have all results finished before you could continue past the loop. Obviously they're still working on stuff like this, but I believe some day that you will be able to break up things that are sequential, as be as efficient, or more, than if you did the work in a single thread.
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post #75 of 111
What people need to remember is that when an image is moving, it's much harder to tell these imperfections that you see in a static image. I think we are getting extremely close to the point where it's almost impossible to tell the difference between real life and a video game, especially in motion.

Best way to show this is the usually minimal difference between our extremely powerful desktops and the consoles. Yes, I know someone will say "BF3 looks way better on my computer than it does on the xbox" and i will agree, but the differences are there because you are comparing the two images together. There is a reason why it is taking so long for the new consoles to come out. Even though technology has had leaps and bounds in graphical capability, it is still tough to justify buying a new console when it will only look marginally better than what we have now

Look at what happened when the 360 was released. People were complaining so much about how the 360 didn't look that much better, even though it does look MUCH better now. Imagine what is going to happen this next console cycle, people probably don't want to upgrade when it doesn't look that much better.
post #76 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

This is one reason I love being in the games industry, getting to see the evolution and be part of it. It makes for an interesting career because it's always changing pretty quickly. On my last project we changed the minimum requirements for the game 3 times, because over the 5 year development of the game computers became much faster. When I started on the project most people still had single core CPUs, the fastest video card was an Nvidia 7950, and 1-2GB of RAM was fairly decent. By the time the project ended there were 6-core CPUs, 6-8GB of RAM was fairly standard, and the fastest video card was either the 590 or 6990. That was over a little bit more than 4 years, so imagine where we'll be in 5 more years, 16-core CPUs, 32-64GB of RAM, and video cards that make a 7970 look like a kid's toy. When I started on that project the iPhone didn't even exist, mobile phone gaming was a tiny niche market. By the time we finished the game, mobile games was a huge market, and the games industry was in a huge state of flux with DLC as well. I have no idea what kind of game I will be working on in 5 years, and that's exciting.

its not really about the standard but about the pricing/accessibility
post #77 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus2129 View Post

The bottleneck is not computing power, but human time, effort, and money. It simply takes too much work to make a truly photorealistic scene (in terms of modeling, texturing, light mapping, design, programming, compositing, testing, tweaking) for it to be economically viable.
A good start to overcoming this is to have a huge, free (or cheaply licensed) model repository with no copyright restrictions whatsoever, that any modeler can contribute to and that companies are encouraged to add to. This should help a *great* deal with many of the common items that are found in environments, without the need for artists to build them from scratch each time because existing models are not available or have to be licensed individually at great cost.

it would be very hard to model, say, the movement of every muscle in a human form for every game, but what if the video game industry divided to conquer? one person could create the perfect human body, which would flex when it moved, and sell it to other video game companies. or subscribe to an umbrella organization that would put the best of the best teams to work on smaller, more manageable projects that everyone who payed into could benefit from.

maybe the industry needs to start working together more than in versus mode, like you said.
Edited by Skoobs - 2/14/12 at 1:19pm
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post #78 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dapman02 View Post

What people need to remember is that when an image is moving, it's much harder to tell these imperfections that you see in a static image. I think we are getting extremely close to the point where it's almost impossible to tell the difference between real life and a video game, especially in motion. Best way to show this is the usually minimal difference between our extremely powerful desktops and the consoles. Yes, I know someone will say "BF3 looks way better on my computer than it does on the xbox" and i will agree, but the differences are there because you are comparing the two images together. There is a reason why it is taking so long for the new consoles to come out. Even though technology has had leaps and bounds in graphical capability, it is still tough to justify buying a new console when it will only look marginally better than what we have now
Look at what happened when the 360 was released. People were complaining so much about how the 360 didn't look that much better, even though it does look MUCH better now. Imagine what is going to happen this next console cycle, people probably don't want to upgrade when it doesn't look that much better.

What does the bolded part have anything to do with the capability of a device to produce a dynamic photo-realistic environment? Neither a computer nor a console come remotely close to being able to. The fact that current consoles have progressed in terms of image quality since when they were deployed is more of a commentary on the engines and texture packs improving, but there's no nearly feasible solution to process and render all of the data that would be necessary to come close to a photo-real production in real time.

I'm curious--what current games do you consider as being very close to photo-realism?
Edited by guyladouche - 2/14/12 at 1:24pm
    
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post #79 of 111
IMO, it's going to take a lot of physics and small colliding particles to give realism to things like trees, water, grass, debris and the overall environment.
In a game like Gran Turismo 5 you might be able to get the game looking very close in some instances and at glances, but pre-determined elements are never going to fit into a photo realistic game and it's going to take magnitudes of more horse power to keep the illusion from breaking.

In a game like BF3, the visuals are great. When a tank shoots through trees, the trees bend giving the effect of wind passing through them. It's cool at first, but the more you see it the more it looks cartoonish. The grass swaying is also nice but as soon as you go prone and lay for 5 seconds, the illusion is broken when you realize they are 2D sprites and start to see the animation loop.
At a glace todays games can looks photo realistic but total photo realism is 20+ years off, I'm sure.

It's funny that someone pointed out that we may be living in the Matrix. If you take a look at how subatomic particles react to being observed and not observed, it's not such a far out thought.
post #80 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by guyladouche View Post

I'm curious--what current games do you consider as being very close to photo-realism?



Mirrors Edge has a pretty good punt at times on PC.

 

GTAIV and Skyrim can look pretty photorealistic too with the right mods.

 

Heavy Rain came pretty close at times aswell. Not bad at all for a PS3 game.

 

 

 

 

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