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[EurekAlert]UT researchers find China's pollution related to E-cars may be more harmful than gasoline cars - Page 2

post #11 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

As it stands it reads like a self-serving study used to reaffirm America's "right choice" to stick to oil, as much as the authors' intention may not have been that.

It could also be interpreted that battery-powered cars are not that much better if the source of the electricity is "dirty". it confirms the move to electric cars in itself is not a solution to lowering environmental impact.
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post #12 of 18
Funny thing is that Top Gear talked about this when they tested the Nissan Leaf and the Peugeot Ion. They only got around 100m out of them before they needed to be recharged. The problem was no one in the town they stopped in would let them use their plugs to charge. They finally found a university that would let them and they charged for it too. In the end it took 18 hours to charge them fully and the only got another 100m out of them.

They asked at then end of the segment two questions: 1: where does the electricity come from/how is it generated and 2: how much of an impact does making the battery packs have.

I tend to agree with them at then end when they said the electric vehicles are not the answer to the problem, they all think that the Honda FCX is a better solution and I agree.
post #13 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

It could also be interpreted that battery-powered cars are not that much better if the source of the electricity is "dirty". it confirms the move to electric cars in itself is not a solution to lowering environmental impact.

Don't know what happened with that quote but you quoted me not Artikbot...anyway, I agree that it can be interpreted in many ways, but it is rather common for US to publish biased studies on certain topics, one being energy related. I can also bet that somebody in your political establishment would use a study like this to support the argument against the move to electric vehicles.
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post #14 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pheatton View Post

Funny thing is that Top Gear talked about this when they tested the Nissan Leaf and the Peugeot Ion. They only got around 100m out of them before they needed to be recharged. The problem was no one in the town they stopped in would let them use their plugs to charge. They finally found a university that would let them and they charged for it too. In the end it took 18 hours to charge them fully and the only got another 100m out of them.
They asked at then end of the segment two questions: 1: where does the electricity come from/how is it generated and 2: how much of an impact does making the battery packs have.
I tend to agree with them at then end when they said the electric vehicles are not the answer to the problem, they all think that the Honda FCX is a better solution and I agree.
100m = 100 mins or 100mi?

The thing is that cars like those are not really meant for long trips. The majority of consumer travel is to and from work. If everyone got a fuel-efficient car for their daily grind, there will be a positive environmental impact. Do you really need to drive yourself in a 15MPG SUV 70miles round trip 5 days a week? (That's $70-90 in gas a week!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dejanh View Post

Don't know what happened with that quote but you quoted me not Artikbot...anyway, I agree that it can be interpreted in many ways, but it is rather common for US to publish biased studies on certain topics, one being energy related. I can also bet that somebody in your political establishment would use a study like this to support the argument against the move to electric vehicles.
No, I quoted you..... you are implying the political slant. These studies have been done on the US numerous times and the same underlying issue always comes up.... How clean is the electricity source?
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post #15 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

The thing is, e-cars don't pollute nowhere as much as petrol cars. What you use to make the byproduct that powers the car is another thing.

Q: Where does the electricity come from
A: The plug
Q: Where does the electricity for that come from
A: Power stations
Q: How do they make the electricity in (most) power stations
A: Burning fossil fuels.
    
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post #16 of 18
I thought this had been (un)common knowledge for some time, nice to see some actual studies on it.

It doesn't matter what the local power source is, your vehicle could be powered by compressed air but it would still have a negative enviromental impact if the air was compressed using a "dirty" power source. Personally I find my bike to be pretty enviromentally friendly but even then there is the impact of making the thing, the rubber that I loose on the road (minimal) and the resources used to make food for me to eat to power my bike. Of course you can always offset that against the equivilent impact of me driving my car 20km / day to work and then going to the gym after...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Korlus View Post

Electricity in a nuclear plant (as an example) is varied by altering the temperature of the reactor. In a coal station, the methods for altering temperature may take a little longer to kick in and not be quite as obvious in effect, but [using less coal] is a great way to cut down on power produced.
tongue.gif

Not quite:
Rambling about power plants (Click to show)
nuclear plants take quite a long time to change load, and even longer to come on load from a warm start and several days from a cold start. Usually nuclear power plants run at 100% for 3 months, shut down and refuel, then back up to 100% for another 3 months.

Coal plants do something called "two shifting" which is where they run for the morning and evening peak demand. A coal plant can typically come on load in 4 hours from cold, 1-2 hours from warm and can run on standby or house load allowing usually ~10mins to full load. Usually house load involves firing the boiler at full temp and pressure but low flow rate and spinning the generator at full speed to provide the ~20-30MW needed to run the plant. Then when load is needed they turn the mills (coal grinders) up, dump more coal in the boiler and crank the turbine.

Some coal plants can run on bypass where the boiler is fired at full capacity, turbine providing house load and the balance of the steam is dumped straight into the condensor. They can come on and off load in 1-2 minutes, with the cost of using a lot of coal.

Oil or gas turbine plants are even easier; press button, power on in ~5 mins. Any heat recovery takes a bit longer to kick in on co-gen plants, but esentially the plant is exporting power straight away.

Edit:

Any quick change in power output is not done on the mechanical end as that would take too long; instead it is done on the electrical end in the generator. I'm not too solid on the details, being a mechanical engineer, but from my understanding it is about how you excite the generator. Large gen sets do not have a permanent magnet spinning in a coil, they use an electro magentic core. Controlling the power going into this core can change the power output and phase from the main coils. It can also essentially cancel out the power output by "spinning" the exitation at the same speed as the shaft rotation.

To step up and down in load quickly to match demand is done first in the generator, and later (10-100ms later) by opening the turbine valves to maintain speed. If it were left to the mechanical side then the sudden change in torque from a step change in electrical load would tear the couplings apart before the valves could react and ultimately destroy the gen set. I actually have some photos at home from the results of this happening if you are interested.

Edited by GingerJohn - 2/13/12 at 12:40pm
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post #17 of 18
It takes a University to point this out? Knew this long time ago, whatever happened to looking at things from a different perspective? Oh yeah, education budget cuts…
 
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post #18 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrews2547 View Post

Q: Where does the electricity come from
A: The plug
Q: Where does the electricity for that come from
A: Power stations
Q: How do they make the electricity in (most) power stations
A: Burning fossil fuels.

This is what I've been saying too.
In fact a study pointed out that if you do less than 10000miles/year, a Toyota Prius does more environmental damage than a Land Rover Discovery. (seen this on Top Gear)
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