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If someone could explain this to me... LowVdroop vs High Vdroop... Instability

post #1 of 8
Thread Starter 
Machine is a basic I7-870 w a MSI P55-Big Bang

I have a 4.125Ghz tune that I have tested for 6Hrs on Prime95 to be stable and I have tested the RAM at 1680 w/ a 210bclck, this tune is 1156mhz. I wanted to see if the lowvdroop setting would allow me to run a little lower idle temps by more steadily regulating the core voltage.... leanin out the low and mid-range A/F's so to speak...wink.gif

This is with HighVdroop 1.425comand and as you can see it runs about 1.30-1.31 on CPU when loaded.

338

Here you see the same exact tune only change in BIOS was to set Vdroop to low and drop the comand Vcore to 1.293V, that yielded a spot on 1.31V reading as you can see here. It crashed just after the 15min test finished on all workers. So it was the next file size that tanked it.

338

My question is why? Why would this do this? Does the CPU require different voltages that minutely determined by CPU output or am I just not quite there yet and should I try a little more. 1.32V failed also so i have one more click between them, but I don't see it helping the way it just drops.

I don't get it unless this setting also locks in Vtt droop (if there is such a thing, I would imagine there is) and now my 1.351Vtt is now too high... or is it somethig I am unfamiliar with at this stage of the game? The manual and in the BIOS it reffers only to Vcore, nothing else.

Sry If I should have posted this in the MOBO forums... feel free to move it... I wasn't sure where it would be more appropriate.

Any ideas would be great.
Edited by gtfoxy - 2/15/12 at 2:19pm
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post #2 of 8

A little help to get you more response. wink.gif

 

Having little/less VDroop should be better for stability. This is true for my 775 platform. biggrin.gif

     
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post #3 of 8
Thread Starter 
Thanks man. I'm stumped as well. I just ended a run with my base setting again just to double check one more time... this one was 2hrs.

338

Right before I started this test I ran it again with the lowVdroop and it went a wopping 30-40seconds and locked up. No error, just locks up and I have to reset it. Also you can see RAM hard faults like crazy when I switch to the lowvdroop settings, that's what makes me think it is related to Vtt. I guess I'll have to hook up the jumper leads and test the Vtt in both settings to see what it is working out to.
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post #4 of 8

Locking up could indicated insufficient voltage(s)... first one would be to increase VCore.

     
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post #5 of 8
Your results are not unusual. LLC (eliminating or severely reducing vdroop) is, in my experience, bad for stability, assuming you are using settings that provide the same load voltage.

I only use LLC if vdroop is so massive that idle voltages would be very excessive without it and/or when I have fine grain control over it. I have never, encountered a situation where eliminating vdroop, or worse, making load voltage higher than idle (outside of powerstates/speed step that do not modify the load line), turned out to be a good thing, ever.

Vdroop is expressly indicated by Intel's electrical specs for a reason. Eliminating it is bad, and the methods some board use to modify it can be worse.
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post #6 of 8
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Your results are not unusual. LLC (eliminating or severely reducing vdroop) is, in my experience, bad for stability, assuming you are using settings that provide the same load voltage.
I only use LLC if vdroop is so massive that idle voltages would be very excessive without it and/or when I have fine grain control over it. I have never, encountered a situation where eliminating vdroop, or worse, making load voltage higher than idle (outside of powerstates/speed step that do not modify the load line), turned out to be a good thing, ever.
Vdroop is expressly indicated by Intel's electrical specs for a reason. Eliminating it is bad, and the methods some board use to modify it can be worse.

That is exactly why I was looking to use it.

With HVdroop, I get to 1.4V (idle) at a lower overall freq (4.2Ghz+). in order to get the load voltages right to sustain the clock when under load. When my idles are at 1.4 I get some weird behavior that makes me just uneasy... Back off comand V to where it reads idles at 1.38V it is fine, but the load V is not high enough. I have read not to go over 1.4Vcore unless you realy know what you are doing... which, I know enough to know I don't know enough, so we'll just leave it at that.

I agree, a tighter control of the Hvdroop would be best but, I think I am stuck with this. I was not understanding the reverse voltage myself. I imagined the extra Vcore is for some kind of idle state fueling, If you will, but if the load Vcore is the same what is the difference? Would not just view it as the same and run under load? Intel has a specific HvDroop spec, wouldn't it be more beneficial to have a LVdroop setting that perhaps only slightly mimicks the HVdroop scale in order to give that little extra cieling in idle Vcore.
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post #7 of 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by ****xy View Post

but if the load Vcore is the same what is the difference?

The voltages you see are essentially averages. The monitoring IC (and the software that reads it) does not poll very fast so you cannot see exactly what is going on. In general, the power delivered when LLC is enabled seems to be dirtier than with it off.

And older article, and though high-end VRMs have generally improved somewhat since the P5E3 used (though this board has a better VRM than the one in your sig), it's still relevant: http://www.anandtech.com/show/2404/5 (read pages 5 and 6).

Anyway, 1.4v core, even 1.45v idle, is not going to significantly reduce the life of your chip. Electromigration is certainly dependent on voltage, but there is also a current component as well and idle current is so low that you would likely need a very high vcore to matter. Increased transient spikes that your board's implementation of LLC is certainly causing are probably going to be more damaging than an extra tenth of a volt idle.

Basically, don't use LLC unless you have a high quality board with good voltage regulation components. Even then, stay away from the highest levels, if possible.
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post #8 of 8
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

The voltages you see are essentially averages. The monitoring IC (and the software that reads it) does not poll very fast so you cannot see exactly what is going on. In general, the power delivered when LLC is enabled seems to be dirtier than with it off.
And older article, and though high-end VRMs have generally improved somewhat since the P5E3 used (though this board has a better VRM than the one in your sig), it's still relevant: http://www.anandtech.com/show/2404/5 (read pages 5 and 6).
Anyway, 1.4v core, even 1.45v idle, is not going to significantly reduce the life of your chip. Electromigration is certainly dependent on voltage, but there is also a current component as well and idle current is so low that you would likely need a very high vcore to matter. Increased transient spikes that your board's implementation of LLC is certainly causing are probably going to be more damaging than an extra tenth of a volt idle.
Basically, don't use LLC unless you have a high quality board with good voltage regulation components. Even then, stay away from the highest levels, if possible.

Then i must need to go back and revisit those tunes to see what i can accomplish. Longevity concerns me not so much, just overall operation is my main concern... but they are most undoubtedly linked.

I read through that and it makes sense to me. Thanks

Edit:
I did go beyond 1.4V for this test...biggrin.gif

2251722.png
Edited by gtfoxy - 2/16/12 at 3:51am
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