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Please Contribute! - OCN WC Tubing Database - Page 16

post #151 of 185
Nice spreadsheet, but am I missing where the "type" of tubing is? i.e. acrylic, petg and perhaps if it is rigid or flexible?
Thanks for the help!
post #152 of 185
All of this is for "soft tube..." Probably because the thread is two years old....
post #153 of 185
Brand: EK PrimoFlex PrimoChill Advanced LRT
Source: PC Case Gear
Purchase Date: JAN-2015
Color: N/A
Transparent? (y/n): Y
Liquid / Additives: EK-Koolant EVO Blue Coolant 1Litre Premix
Kill Coil (y/n): N
PH Balance: N/A
Block Material(s): Copper / Nickel
Tubing Dimensions: Almost 3 meters
Period of Time: 4 months
Tubing Condition & Description: Cloudy. Small white particles on inner tube walls. Gunk in the micro-channels of CPU and GPU's blocks. White sediment in water reservoir
Notes/Comments:Disappointed. Cannot trust this tubing.

Pictures: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)



So, is there any conclusion as to the main reason for clouding, even on tubes that are advertised as plasticising proof?
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post #154 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil80 View Post


So, is there any conclusion as to the main reason for clouding, even on tubes that are advertised as plasticising proof?

All soft tubing will cloud over time. A soft tube can cloud for numerous reasons with the most common being the leeching of plasticizer, the slow absorption of water, and excessive heat buildup. Soft tubing will, over time, pull and absorb water from the liquid being carried inside of the tube. This absorption of water is inevitable and will happen to all soft tubing. Spec sheets are often available for soft tubing and the thing to keep an eye out for is the absorption rate. Cloudiness will occur once the tubing has absorbed the proper levels of water.

Soft tubing advertised as "plasticizer free" will still contain some plasticizer ( the fine print in the marketing is plasticizer type "A" free but still has type "B" and "C"). Without plasticizer, the PVC tubing wouldn't be soft or bendable so all soft tubing must have certain types and levels of plasticizer. The ones you want to keep an eye out for are the ones that contain minimal plasticizers and ones that leech more slowly over time.

The amount of heat traveling through the tubes can drastically accelerate the clouding process. Most soft tubing will start to cloud rapidly if the fluid temps (not your CPU/GPU temps but FLUID temps) are constantly at or above 45c. Multiple independent tests have even been conducted on this and all with the same results. Give me a roll of the industry's best soft tubing and I can make it opaque from cloudiness overnight with the right temps. thumb.gif good rule of thumb is to make sure your fluid doesn't go above 40c.

EDIT: forgot to mention the PH level of your fluid. This has got to be the number one most overlooked aspect of watercooling. You need your PH level of your loop to be between 6-7.5 . Overly acidic fluids can break down the inner linings of tubing. The residue left over from manufacturing of some of your loop's components can cause havoc. Radiators in particular often contain flux and other residues that can cause your Ph to drop drastically. Certain radiator brands are worse than others with left over gunk from manufacturing such as Alphacool and Phobya. Simply rinsing these radiators with hot water and vinegar is not enough to strip the film on the inside. Watercooling company "Mayhems" actually produces an acidic wash for radiators called Blitz. It removes impurities such as flux from copper radiators and then part 2 of the Blitz kit neutralizes the acid and returns Ph levels to normal. I recommend you test the Ph level of your coolant with some test strips from the pharmacy to make sure this isn't your issue. If your Ph is out of whack, then please visit the Mayhems user thread in the watercooling section of OCN for more help.

Watercooling can be a fine science. Stick with it my friend.
Edited by The EX1 - 5/18/15 at 10:32pm
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post #155 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by The EX1 View Post

All soft tubing will cloud over time. A soft tube can cloud for numerous reasons with the most common being the leeching of plasticizer, the slow absorption of water, and excessive heat buildup. Soft tubing will, over time, pull and absorb water from the liquid being carried inside of the tube. This absorption of water is inevitable and will happen to all soft tubing. Spec sheets are often available for soft tubing and the thing to keep an eye out for is the absorption rate. Cloudiness will occur once the tubing has absorbed the proper levels of water.

Soft tubing advertised as "plasticizer free" will still contain some plasticizer ( the fine print in the marketing is plasticizer type "A" free but still has type "B" and "C"). Without plasticizer, the PVC tubing wouldn't be soft or bendable so all soft tubing must have certain types and levels of plasticizer. The ones you want to keep an eye out for are the ones that contain minimal plasticizers and ones that leech more slowly over time.

The amount of heat traveling through the tubes can drastically accelerate the clouding process. Most soft tubing will start to cloud rapidly if the fluid temps (not your CPU/GPU temps but FLUID temps) are constantly at or above 45c. Multiple independent tests have even been conducted on this and all with the same results. Give me a roll of the industry's best soft tubing and I can make it opaque from cloudiness overnight with the right temps. thumb.gif good rule of thumb is to make sure your fluid doesn't go above 40c.

Not going to happen smile.gif
In hot Sydney summer nights, with two R9 290, water temps are about 43deg.
So I can live with clouding, I can't live with the leeching gunk on my blocks. Is there anything against that?
What is the rating for the EK Advanced LRT?
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post #156 of 185
When I used soft tube I always had to remove small amounts of plasticiser gunk from the CPU block. Especially in summer. I got better results with EK Norprene but I didn't use it long enough to be absolutely sure.
Switched to Acrylic and never looked back. Problem solved.
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post #157 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire View Post

When I used soft tube I always had to remove small amounts of plasticiser gunk from the CPU block. Especially in summer. I got better results with EK Norprene but I didn't use it long enough to be absolutely sure.
Switched to Acrylic and never looked back. Problem solved.

if I had the time, tools and talent, I would use Acrylic as well. If you ever drop by to Sydney, your are most welcomed to visit me smile.gif and help me out replacing to Acrylic biggrin.gif
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post #158 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil80 View Post

Not going to happen smile.gif
In hot Sydney summer nights, with two R9 290, water temps are about 43deg.
So I can live with clouding, I can't live with the leeching gunk on my blocks. Is there anything against that?
What is the rating for the EK Advanced LRT?

290s and Australia can do that biggrin.gif. Can you add additional radiator space and/or be sure that your current radiators are fully optimized? If you can get those fluid temps down, the gunk from the leeched plasticizer will drop dramatically. I have gone over two years with the same Advanced LRT with zero signs of any buildup or clouding with fluid temps that are kept at 32c.

Here is a study you would find interesting involving the most popular tubing brands! The temp difference between 40c and 45c is drastic with PVC soft tubing. Hope this makes sense thumb.gif
http://www.overclock.net/t/1272759/testing-tubing/0_30
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post #159 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by The EX1 View Post

290s and Australia can do that biggrin.gif. Can you add additional radiator space and/or be sure that your current radiators are fully optimized? If you can get those fluid temps down, the gunk from the leeched plasticizer will drop dramatically. I have gone over two years with the same Advanced LRT with zero signs of any buildup or clouding with fluid temps that are kept at 32c.

Here is a study you would find interesting involving the most popular tubing brands! The temp difference between 40c and 45c is drastic with PVC soft tubing. Hope this makes sense thumb.gif
http://www.overclock.net/t/1272759/testing-tubing/0_30

Thank you very much for the info. I real eye opener.
So I've made my own test on the EK PrimoChill PrimoFlex Advance LRT tube (3/8" 5/8").
I submerged part of it in a tub with about 40deg water temps for about 2 hours.
These are the results:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)



So except my hairy hand, it clearly shows the issue.

As for adding extra radiator
My case is Phanteks Enthoo Primo.
I use 420/60 with P/P configuration and 280/45 in P/P configuration.
The large rad feeds the GPU directly and the smaller rad feeds the CPU.
I use two water reservoirs.
My loop is counter clockwise.

I need to revisit my case specs to see what is the size of the extra rad I can fit and where. I believe it will about max of 240/30mm rad in push or pull only.
How much it will be efficient in controlling the temp at max 40, in Sydney summer with two R9 290? I doubt it biggrin.gif

Also, please note that my case is configured for positive air pressure, meaning that all fans are intake (pushing air to the case)
and only the rear fan is exhausting the hot air. Sounds counter intuitive but the case is very clean for a carpeted room full of dust. This obviously contributes to higher temps inside the case.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The EX1 View Post

EDIT: forgot to mention the PH level of your fluid. This has got to be the number one most overlooked aspect of watercooling. You need your PH level of your loop to be between 6-7.5 . Overly acidic fluids can break down the inner linings of tubing. The residue left over from manufacturing of some of your loop's components can cause havoc. Radiators in particular often contain flux and other residues that can cause your Ph to drop drastically. Certain radiator brands are worse than others with left over gunk from manufacturing such as Alphacool and Phobya. Simply rinsing these radiators with hot water and vinegar is not enough to strip the film on the inside. Watercooling company "Mayhems" actually produces an acidic wash for radiators called Blitz. It removes impurities such as flux from copper radiators and then part 2 of the Blitz kit neutralizes the acid and returns Ph levels to normal. I recommend you test the Ph level of your coolant with some test strips from the pharmacy to make sure this isn't your issue. If your Ph is out of whack, then please visit the Mayhems user thread in the watercooling section of OCN for more help.

Watercooling can be a fine science. Stick with it my friend.

I never knew that it's an issue. So after reading your edit, I'm left with two extra issues on top the ones I've got already biggrin.gif
1. In Australia they don't import the PRO kit. And here's a quote from a seller in Australia I emailed yesterday
Quote:
Unfortunately Mayhems do not have CE certification for the electronic PH tester in the Pro kit. Without this certification it is illegal for us to sell them in Australia.
I did purchase the basic kit and I'm waiting for it. So I hope it will help to clean the majority of the loop because I really can't go through the hassle of stripping apart my Enthoo Primo case to take the top rad out and clean more than I already did. You literally have to take almost every available screw and mount on the case in order to place that 420mm rad.
So, question is, where do I get a PH testing kit and if it's too high/low how do I amend it?

2. Without the Pro kit, what else can I do to clean the rad as best as possible?
Edited by Gil80 - 5/19/15 at 9:10pm
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post #160 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil80 View Post

Thank you very much for the info. I real eye opener.
So I've made my own test on the EK PrimoChill PrimoFlex Advance LRT tube (3/8" 5/8").
I submerged part of it in a tub with about 40deg water temps for about 2 hours.

So except my hairy hand, it clearly shows the issue.

As for adding extra radiator
My case is Phanteks Enthoo Primo.
I use 420/60 with P/P configuration and 280/45 in P/P configuration.
The large rad feeds the GPU directly and the smaller rad feeds the CPU.
I use two water reservoirs.
My loop is counter clockwise.

I need to revisit my case specs to see what is the size of the extra rad I can fit and where. I believe it will about max of 240/30mm rad in push or pull only.
How much it will be efficient in controlling the temp at max 40, in Sydney summer with two R9 290? I doubt it biggrin.gif

Also, please note that my case is configured for positive air pressure, meaning that all fans are intake (pushing air to the case)
and only the rear fan is exhausting the hot air. Sounds counter intuitive but the case is very clean for a carpeted room full of dust. This obviously contributes to higher temps inside the case.
I never knew that it's an issue. So after reading your edit, I'm left with two extra issues on top the ones I've got already biggrin.gif
1. In Australia they don't import the PRO kit. And here's a quote from a seller in Australia I emailed yesterday
I did purchase the basic kit and I'm waiting for it. So I hope it will help to clean the majority of the loop because I really can't go through the hassle of stripping apart my Enthoo Primo case to take the top rad out and clean more than I already did. You literally have to take almost every available screw and mount on the case in order to place that 420mm rad.
So, question is, where do I get a PH testing kit and if it's too high/low how do I amend it?

2. Without the Pro kit, what else can I do to clean the rad as best as possible?

What brand radiators are you currently using? Most brands allow you to get away with boiling hot water and vinegar solutions if you let it soak for a few hours. I would really only recommend Part 1 of the Blitz kit if you are using Alphacool or Phobya radiators. There reputation for dirty radiators has caused a lot of negative light to be cast upon them. So much so that an Alphacool rep came onto OCN and they are now supposedly cleaning up the units before shipping them out. I do love the performance of Alphacool radiators though :DBlitz Part 2 is mainly a surfactant that will lift and flush debris out of the loop. Part 2 is also a Ph balancer so it will return your loop back to a neutral Ph. Ph test strips can most likely be found a local drug store or pool supply store thumb.gif

You have a lot of radiator in that build and a big ass case which helps you expand if you choose to. One thing you need to realize though is that the positive pressure inside your case is hurting your radiator performance even in a P/P configuration. The positive pressure it fighting your radiator fans and is not allowing the air to travel as quickly through the radiator as possible. As your loop begins to heat up, the problem will begin to compound as the air coming off your radiators and entering the case is of course hot. Hot air expands and will continue to fight your radiator's airflow. I would recommend balancing your airflow out if you mount your radiators internally. I know less dust is a huge plus but is it worth the cost of constantly worrying about tubing issues? Not to mention, fluid temps that high will also reduce the life of your pump.

Edited for spelling..
Edited by The EX1 - 5/19/15 at 11:25pm
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