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post #191 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolhandluke41 View Post

C3/C6-EIST/ C1E Explained (Click to hide)
Raja (Asus rep)- "It puts cores into a "park" deep sleep state, basically shutting off all clock cycles on several cores. And it can cause problems at idle or especially light load, as the vcore sometimes does not ramp up enough, plus, the data has to be cached into L3 cache in order to be recovered. Someone tested it and during light load, 1 thread stress, he only had 1.32v going to the chip, when with C3/C6 disabled, he had 1.36v. And he needed that 1.36v for stability."
-User(HardForum) ".. when i am in windows and open cpu-7 it shows 1.400v then when i start prime95
my volts go down to 1.368 in that normal.."
-Raja.."Yes that's perfectly normal, because of vdroop.
C3 and C6 are basically useless unless you want to save pennies a month on electricity.
C1E and EIST is what you want to use. C1E is controlled by hardware and EIST is controlled by software. As already been discussed, there's an "issue" with some Asus bioses where EIST remains enabled even if its disabled in the BIOS, but it looks like they are addressing that.

If you want your CPU to downclock and downvolt when idle (no it doesn't add any wear and tear to it), you must have either EIST or C1E enabled. C1E overrides all OS settings for power plan, but both can be toggled on or off in realtemp 3.67, so you can experiment. .."

i go with coolhandluke41 on this one, i like my C3/C6 disabled, EIST and C1 enabled,
and using offset..

"C1E and EIST is what you want to use.
C1E is controlled by hardware and EIST is controlled by software.
As already been discussed, there's an "issue" with some Asus bioses where EIST remains enabled even if its disabled in the BIOS, but it looks like they are addressing that."

no problem for me, since im using a Gigabyte mobo wink.gif
guess everyone has to choose their own settings, and what works best for them,
i know offset can be hard sometimes, some cant get it to work right,
i never had any problems setting mine up tho, its very simple ones you know the how to,
you need to know your stable vcore for any oc anyways, if you have that the work is almost done smile.gif
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post #192 of 369
Quote:
Someone tested it and during light load, 1 thread stress, he only had 1.32v going to the chip, when with C3/C6 disabled, he had 1.36v. And he needed that 1.36v for stability.

That's either a problem with the board or how the board is set up. A good board should be able to provide the same fixed voltage at idle or fully loaded without any significant variation in vCore.
Quote:
guess everyone has to choose their own settings, and what works best for them,

Now that I can agree with.
post #193 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclewebb View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The reason I have EIST enabled is because it is impossible to disable it in the bios on my motherboard.

The bios will provide users with a bunch of options so you can enable and disable various CPU features. After you push OK or Save, it looks at your selections and then it ignores some selections that are not compatible with each other. On my Asus P8Z77-V Pro board, I have an option in the bios to enable or disable EIST / SpeedStep but after I boot up, no matter what I choose, I find that EIST has automatically been enabled. I always thought EIST was necessary for the proper functioning of the Turbo Boost feature so perhaps that's why Asus always leaves it on or maybe it is just a bug with my board.

As a user, if I disabled EIST in the bios, I would be believe that EIST was truly disabled. After testing my board, I am thinking that there are probably a lot of users convinced that they have EIST disabled when in fact it is still enabled within the CPU.

If you want to find out what your board does with EIST, disable this in the bios, boot up but don't run any utility programs. Next, run my MSR Tool and read MSR 0x1A0. This is the register in the CPU that will show whether you booted up with EIST enabled or disabled. Changing this register after you have booted up a Core i CPU doesn't seem to change anything.

MSR Tool
http://www.mediafire.com/?myjkxzkzzmd

You just need to enter 0x1A0 in the MSR Number box and then click on the Read MSR button. If bit[16] is set, that means the bios left EIST enabled. Post a screen shot or copy and paste the contents of the EAX register if you need me to interpret your data.

When the C6 core state is enabled and you are watching a movie or working on any task where the CPU is not being 100% utilized, the unused cores will automatically enter the low power C6 state. Here's an example while running a 2M Super Pi bench.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2089/superpicscore.png

One quarter of the CPU is being utilized by the Super PI bench and on average, 73% of the time, the unused cores are in C6 using close to zero power. The rest of the time the CPU is working on various Windows background tasks.

When using C6, I don't see any significant time when offset voltages would ever be used. If the CPU is in the C0 state working on a task, it is going to be at the full turbo multiplier so you need to give it as much voltage as necessary to be stable. When it is not in C0 working on a task, it immediately drops back down to C6 where the fixed voltage you have entered in the bios is ignored.

Thanks for the explanation. Have you read the reply of Forceman here though? What is your take on this?

Does the same explanation goes that when you are using Offset and EIST/C1E, you let the CPU downclock to 1600MHz and the CPU runs slower which triggers multiple cores just to process a video and in turn the CPU won't spend most of the time at C3/C6 states?

Also, I understand that the Offset voltages will not be used most of the time. But are you saying that it is still imperative that the CPU downclocks? You said that with Windows High Performance and C6 enabled, the CPU still downclocks. I thought our aim (for best performance) is for it not to downclock and stay at, say, 4.7GHz all the time it is in C0 state? In that case, if I can disable EIST then the better, right?

EDIT1: I've just tried using MSR to see if my EIST is really disabled after disabling it in BIOS and I think I have the same problem. Here's the screenshot of the MSR program:



Based from the picture, bit[19] to [bit[16] are 0101 which is shown as 0x5 in the program. That means bit[16]=1 and is SET. This is the same whether EIST is enabled or disabled in BIOS. That means EIST is really enabled, right?

This explains why when using RealTemp, I still can see that my multiplier still varies? Then if this is the case, why do we still need to disable C1E if the CPU is still changing its frequency because EIST is enabled? I thought the CPU needs to go through C1E state first before it can go to lower power states like C3 and C6?

What do we do to achieve our goal of keeping the CPU frequency fixed to the highest multiplier?

EDIT2: I tried comparing fixed vcore and offset vcore. At idle, I got 100W for offset vcore and 104W for fixed vcore. I thought they were supposed to have the same power consumption at idle because both go to C6 anyway? Any explanation to this 4W difference?
Edited by kevindd992002 - 2/19/13 at 9:20am
post #194 of 369
I moved this here as I don't have Z68.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindd992002 View Post

But the thing is what if you are doing a long task that requires less than 100% CPU usage (let's say 25%) wouldn't running at 16000MHz and at 1.000V be better for power savings?

This is what I see when CPU is forced to 25% usage. If I've understood the conversation then the cores are spending a lot of time at C6 state which beats offset 1.0v? Secondly and according to that page, my multi is not down at 16x but all show 45x and even at idle no program shows my multi down at 16x most of the time?

BTW: I was pleasantly surprised that the SSD didn't take a big hit either from enabling C3/C6.

BTW2: I also have EIST problem on my Z77-V.

Anyhow, now to wait and see if there's any reason I shouldn't keep this. My first time using manual instead of offset.

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post #195 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by VonDutch View Post

i go with coolhandluke41 on this one, i like my C3/C6 disabled, EIST and C1 enabled,
and using offset..

"C1E and EIST is what you want to use.
C1E is controlled by hardware and EIST is controlled by software.
As already been discussed, there's an "issue" with some Asus bioses where EIST remains enabled even if its disabled in the BIOS, but it looks like they are addressing that."

no problem for me, since im using a Gigabyte mobo wink.gif
guess everyone has to choose their own settings, and what works best for them,
i know offset can be hard sometimes, some cant get it to work right,
i never had any problems setting mine up tho, its very simple ones you know the how to,
you need to know your stable vcore for any oc anyways, if you have that the work is almost done smile.gif

Yeah I agree, Same settings here : c3/c6 DISabled, EIST + C1 ENabled and using offset.
I have an ASUS bios, but since I have EIST enabled anyway it doesnt make a difference for this ''issue'' biggrin.gif
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post #196 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by error-id10t View Post

I moved this here as I don't have Z68.
This is what I see when CPU is forced to 25% usage. If I've understood the conversation then the cores are spending a lot of time at C6 state which beats offset 1.0v? Secondly and according to that page, my multi is not down at 16x but all show 45x and even at idle no program shows my multi down at 16x most of the time?

BTW: I was pleasantly surprised that the SSD didn't take a big hit either from enabling C3/C6.

BTW2: I also have EIST problem on my Z77-V.

Anyhow, now to wait and see if there's any reason I shouldn't keep this. My first time using manual instead of offset.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

if it works, i see no reason not to keep it smile.gif
if uncleweb is right, then you would safe some pennies a month on electric.. lol
maybe its not about whats the best way, but the way everyone prefers his settings,
offset or fixed, like i said, i prefer offset with my oc's over a fixed vcore smile.gif

btw1, yea, ive read somewhere that disabling C3/C6 will get the most speed out of a SSD,
maybe its not noticable tho..

btw2, yea, seems Asus mobo's have it, guess somewhere down the line Asus will fix that
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffie82 View Post

Yeah I agree, Same settings here : c3/c6 DISabled, EIST + C1 ENabled and using offset.
I have an ASUS bios, but since I have EIST enabled anyway it doesnt make a difference for this ''issue'' biggrin.gif

cool, like i said, its what you prefer, i always use offset, doesnt mean fixed vcore is bad tho,
i rather see my vcore/speed drop all of the time then having a constant 1.420V vcore on it with my 4.8ghz oc,
eventho cores go to "sleep" when having C3/C6 enabled..
Edited by VonDutch - 2/19/13 at 4:53am
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post #197 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by error-id10t View Post

I moved this here as I don't have Z68.
This is what I see when CPU is forced to 25% usage. If I've understood the conversation then the cores are spending a lot of time at C6 state which beats offset 1.0v? Secondly and according to that page, my multi is not down at 16x but all show 45x and even at idle no program shows my multi down at 16x most of the time?

BTW: I was pleasantly surprised that the SSD didn't take a big hit either from enabling C3/C6.

BTW2: I also have EIST problem on my Z77-V.

Anyhow, now to wait and see if there's any reason I shouldn't keep this. My first time using manual instead of offset.

If I'm getting this right, then you're preferring fixed vcore with eist and c1e disabled, right?
post #198 of 369
Well for me, in my case, I don't have the option of having C3/C6 enabled AND using offset, it will BSOD. If I want the C states enabled, this is the only way.

If you can have best of the both worlds - questionable if offset still helps seeing as C6 kicks in (that's the question, right?) - then I guess I would leave it to offset though. I don't have a preference, offset has worked todate as expected. Now I'll sit back and see what comes from each corner and test it out the best I can on my system smile.gif
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post #199 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by error-id10t View Post

Well for me, in my case, I don't have the option of having C3/C6 enabled AND using offset, it will BSOD. If I want the C states enabled, this is the only way.

If you can have best of the both worlds - questionable if offset still helps seeing as C6 kicks in (that's the question, right?) - then I guess I would leave it to offset though. I don't have a preference, offset has worked todate as expected. Now I'll sit back and see what comes from each corner and test it out the best I can on my system smile.gif

Yup, that's actually the question. Unclewebb is explaining that using a fixed vcore with a fixed frequency (manual + eist/c1e disabled) is the best way to go for power savings and performance. He says that using offset + downclocking/downvolting is somewhat counter-productive because it will make the CPU less time at C6 compared to when using manual + fixed clock. I need to understand why though.
post #200 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindd992002 View Post

Yup, that's actually the question. Unclewebb is explaining that using a fixed vcore with a fixed frequency (manual + eist/c1e disabled) is the best way to go for power savings and performance. He says that using offset + downclocking/downvolting is somewhat counter-productive because it will make the CPU less time at C6 compared to when using manual + fixed clock. I need to understand why though.

So Fixed voltage setup = cores off (0 power)
Offset voltage setup = all cores on in low state (>=/0 power)

in basic terms?
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