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post #221 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindd992002 View Post

Ah. Well, I do not want to disable C3 and C6 because my goal is to make my CPU sleep most of the time at C6. Unclewebb said that if C3 and C6 are disabled then there would be no time that it would be at C1E so that's why he recommended it to be disabled. Do you think it's better to keep C1E enabled also?
Yes, I think C1E should be enabled too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindd992002 View Post

I tried that already, using High Performance windows power plan which has its minimum processor state at 100% but when I monitor through RealTemp, the multiplier is still fluctuating and is not fixed at 47x.
I did quick test on that before but yes it will still fluctuate. Still, most of the time CPU will running at max frequency. I don't think you can prevent it from fluctuating when C1E/C3/C6 are enabled since CPU will request LFM. Using logic, it doesn't make sense cores can run at max frequency when voltage is near 0V, right? So, it should fluctuate.

There is no way to run at max frequency all the time unless all C-States also disabled.

You can force disable EIST using ThrottleStop. HWiNFO can confirm whether EIST is disabled or not (EIST will turn from green to red in summary window). Then you can see whether CPU frequency still fluctuates or not.
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post #222 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by kizwan View Post

You can force disable EIST using ThrottleStop. HWiNFO can confirm whether EIST is disabled or not (EIST will turn from green to red in summary window). Then you can see whether CPU frequency still fluctuates or not.

Yeah I tried this last night and like you said, it appears to do 'something' - MSR confirms it, but the multi still jumps around.
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post #223 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma7820 View Post

this is a big topic if I don't care about power saving at all but just the lifespan of the cpu which would be better to use offset or manual.

if I am understanding this correctly unclewebb is saying that even if the voltage is manual in bios if c6 and c3 are enabled the voltage still drops down on the cores when they are in that state. the thing that confuses me is what is showing that the voltage is actually droping because if I use manual voltage cpuz, and HWM all show the constant voltage even if I check realtemp csates and it shows them in c state

One problem I see with a fixed voltage, even with C-states enabled, is that you are forcing the full voltage whenever the CPU is awake. So it is still spending more time at the higher voltage than it would if you used offset. The chip isn't always either at 4.6 or off, it also spends time at 2.8 and 3.5 and 1.6 - and all that time it is at the full voltage instead of some lower amount. Probably doesn't make much difference in the long-run, but who knows.
post #224 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by kizwan View Post

Yes, I think C1E should be enabled too.
I did quick test on that before but yes it will still fluctuate. Still, most of the time CPU will running at max frequency. I don't think you can prevent it from fluctuating when C1E/C3/C6 are enabled since CPU will request LFM. Using logic, it doesn't make sense cores can run at max frequency when voltage is near 0V, right? So, it should fluctuate.

There is no way to run at max frequency all the time unless all C-States also disabled.

You can force disable EIST using ThrottleStop. HWiNFO can confirm whether EIST is disabled or not (EIST will turn from green to red in summary window). Then you can see whether CPU frequency still fluctuates or not.

Well, but why does unclewebb recommend C1E to be disabled? AFAIK, it is one of the states that is responsible for changing the CPU frequency to 1.6GHz.

Yes, it does make sense that at 0V the CPU frequency should be lower.

I'll try that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by error-id10t View Post

Yeah I tried this last night and like you said, it appears to do 'something' - MSR confirms it, but the multi still jumps around.

Hmmm, so HWInfo says that EIST is already disabled but the multi still fluctuates?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

One problem I see with a fixed voltage, even with C-states enabled, is that you are forcing the full voltage whenever the CPU is awake. So it is still spending more time at the higher voltage than it would if you used offset. The chip isn't always either at 4.6 or off, it also spends time at 2.8 and 3.5 and 1.6 - and all that time it is at the full voltage instead of some lower amount. Probably doesn't make much difference in the long-run, but who knows.

Yeah, I guess that's one thing to consider if you really can't force the CPU to go from 4.6 to off alone (EIST completely disabled). This is one important question that, I hope, unclewebb can answer and give clarity to.
post #225 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by error-id10t View Post

Yeah I tried this last night and like you said, it appears to do 'something' - MSR confirms it, but the multi still jumps around.
This show C-States will still make CPU to request LFM mode. So, the fluctuates multi make sense I guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindd992002 View Post

Well, but why does unclewebb recommend C1E to be disabled? AFAIK, it is one of the states that is responsible for changing the CPU frequency to 1.6GHz.
Even if C1E disabled, C3/C6 still can cause CPU fluctuates to 1.6GHz (LFM). In my test, whether C1E is enabled or disabled, CPU still fluctuates between max frequency & LFM frequency, if C3/C6 still enabled. That's why I recommend to enabled C1E.

I don't disagree with unclewebb recommendation but it just recommendation. Also doesn't means you have to follow my recommendation. It's all up to you.
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post #226 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by kizwan View Post

This show C-States will still make CPU to request LFM mode. So, the fluctuates multi make sense I guess.
Even if C1E disabled, C3/C6 still can cause CPU fluctuates to 1.6GHz (LFM). In my test, whether C1E is enabled or disabled, CPU still fluctuates between max frequency & LFM frequency, if C3/C6 still enabled. That's why I recommend to enabled C1E.

I don't disagree with unclewebb recommendation but it just recommendation. Also doesn't means you have to follow my recommendation. It's all up to you.

Yup, I just want to understand the real processes going on behind these three sleep states before I make my decision smile.gif
post #227 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by kizwan View Post


I don't disagree with unclewebb recommendation but it just recommendation. Also doesn't means you have to follow my recommendation. It's all up to you.

true that...hope he will make up his mind someday ...LOL biggrin.gif
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post #228 of 369
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Originally Posted by VonDutch View Post

true that...hope he will make up his mind someday ...LOL biggrin.gif

And you are referring to me, aren't you?
post #229 of 369
Since my Asus board always boots up with EIST enabled, I wasn't sure if toggling EIST when in Windows was actually doing anything. After doing some more testing, yes you can enable or disable EIST when you are in Windows by toggling bit[16] in MSR 0x1A0 but C1E / C3 / C6 all seem to be able to over ride your EIST selection. Whether EIST is enabled or disabled, if you enable any of the low power C states (C1E/C3/C6), the CPU will start to rapidly transition between the maximum turbo multiplier and the 16 multiplier.

With the C6 core C State enabled, I can not measure any significant difference in power consumption whether C1E is enabled or disabled. Enabling C1E makes a measurable difference to power consumption if you are not using C3/C6. When C3/C6 are enabled, there isn't much time left over when the CPU will choose to use C1E over one of the other C states. It would rather be in C3/C6 to maximize power savings.

load03p.png

In the above example at idle, the cores are spending 99.5% in either C3 or C6. The RealTemp Load meter shows the percentage of time in the C0 state so the CPU is in C0 or C3 or C6 99.8% of the time which leaves 0.2% unaccounted for. That leaves 0.2% of the time left over when the CPU is in the C1 state. Whether you have C1E enabled or not, there is only 0.2% of the time when the CPU would have the opportunity to use it. If you enable C1E, it might end up spending 0.1% of the time in C1 and 0.1% of the time in C1E. The rest of the time the CPU is going to be in one of the other preferred C States. When your CPU is partially loaded the same thing happens. There is not a lot of time left over when C1E will actually be used when C3 or C6 are enabled.

I originally turned C1E off because it was preventing Windows from resuming from sleep when overclocking. With C1E enabled, Windows would hang with a black screen when trying to resume from sleep. With C1E disabled and C3 and C6 enabled, it resumes from sleep every time with no issues. Asus might have fixed this in the most recent bios.

Based on that, I consider C1E to be optional when using either C3 or C6. Sure C1E reduces power consumption in theory but the reality is that the difference is going to be difficult to measure whenever you have C3 or C6 enabled.

Edit: The power consumption numbers provided by all monitoring software that I know of are based on VID voltage and not actual voltage. You can not use software power consumption data to come to any conclusions about anything. A change in the VID voltage may or may not result in a change in the actual vCore voltage. In the above example the cores are getting virtually 0 volts 99.5% of the time because they are in C6. That only leaves 0.5% of the time when the cores are getting the vCore that software reports. With C6 enabled, the reported vCore when idle starts to become meaningless because it is barely used. High or low reported vCore at idle becomes insignificant. Going with a fixed vCore does not have the penalties that you initially assume.
Edited by unclewebb - 2/20/13 at 9:54am
post #230 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclewebb View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Since my Asus board always boots up with EIST enabled, I wasn't sure if toggling EIST when in Windows was actually doing anything. After doing some more testing, yes you can enable or disable EIST when you are in Windows by toggling bit[16] in MSR 0x1A0 but C1E / C3 / C6 all seem to be able to over ride your EIST selection. Whether EIST is enabled or disabled, if you enable any of the low power C states (C1E/C3/C6), the CPU will start to rapidly transition between the maximum turbo multiplier and the 16 multiplier.

With the C6 core C State enabled, I can not measure any significant difference in power consumption whether C1E is enabled or disabled. Enabling C1E makes a measurable difference to power consumption if you are not using C3/C6. When C3/C6 are enabled, there isn't much time left over when the CPU will choose to use C1E over one of the other C states. It would rather be in C3/C6 to maximize power savings.

load03p.png

In the above example at idle, the cores are spending 99.5% in either C3 or C6. The RealTemp Load meter shows the percentage of time in the C0 state so the CPU is in C0 or C3 or C6 99.8% of the time which leaves 0.2% unaccounted for. That leaves 0.2% of the time left over when the CPU is in the C1 state. Whether you have C1E enabled or not, there is only 0.2% of the time when the CPU would have the opportunity to use it. If you enable C1E, it might end up spending 0.1% of the time in C1 and 0.1% of the time in C1E. The rest of the time the CPU is going to be in one of the other preferred C States. When your CPU is partially loaded the same thing happens. There is not a lot of time left over when C1E will actually be used when C3 or C6 are enabled.

I originally turned C1E off because it was preventing Windows from resuming from sleep when overclocking. With C1E enabled, Windows would hang with a black screen when trying to resume from sleep. With C1E disabled and C3 and C6 enabled, it resumes from sleep every time with no issues. Asus might have fixed this in the most recent bios.

Based on that, I consider C1E to be optional when using either C3 or C6. Sure C1E reduces power consumption in theory but the reality is that the difference is going to be difficult to measure whenever you have C3 or C6 enabled.

Edit: The power consumption numbers provided by all monitoring software that I know of is based on VID voltage and not actual voltage. You can not use software power consumption data to come to any conclusions about anything. A change in the VID voltage may or may not result in a change in the actual vCore voltage.

1.) Thanks for the confirmation. If C1 is not a setting in the BIOS, is automatically enabled? In your example above, if I disable C1E then where would the 0.2% go? Will it be shared by C3 and C6?

2.) Also, why isn't your system going to the Package C state for C6? Isn't that better?

3.) If we do not have a way to stop CPU frequency throttling and no way to stay at a fixed frequency, wouldn't it better to use less voltage for frequencies in between 1600MHz and, say, 4.7GHz? Because for Fixed vcore, you force the voltage to a high voltage even at frequencies like 3.3GHz when the CPU stays at that frequency. If you use Offset, the voltage scales according to the frequency used at one moment because it is based on the current VID. Isn't that better?
Edited by kevindd992002 - 2/20/13 at 10:35am
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