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DeathAdder Maximum Perfect Control Speed Test Video - Page 2

post #11 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by PappaSmurfsHarem View Post

I was saying that with the assumption of acceleration enabled in windows (should have specified) then I also talked about RAW input such as when it is enabled in a Source game or BF3
Also I did put an OR in that post, I should have probably made the spacing better.
Either way, you have made a helpful post thumb.gif

Thanks.

For the record, OS/software settings (apart from CPI/polling rate on drivers) don't interfere with the internal mouse workings at all.

From the perspective of the mouse, you can use WM_MOUSEMOVE, Raw input or Direct Input, it's sending the same data to the OS where it's usually "treated", which sends it to the game, where it's "treated" again.

To keep the post shorter and simple, I'll just put the three main input methods on windows :
- WM_MOUSEMOVE : It uses the cursor of the desktop to calculate the distance the mouse "travels" between frames. Once it hits the sides (counting up,down, left and right), it stops counting for that frame, thus giving negative accel. It can give enough high perfect tracking speed if your combination is of low CPI, high screen resolution, high FPS, will cause problems if used in low res, high CPI, low FPS. Also it can process mouse balistics from Windows, thus making your "mouse movement" feel weird in-game (for example on Win7 with its new mouse ballistics).
- DirectInput : It uses Raw Input (latest revisions at least) to fetch the data from the mouse, but it buffers it to send it to the game in "one package", so it gives a delay - it's commonly accepted it's 12ms.
- Raw Input : It fetches all the data from the mouse in a raw state, so it fetches the same number of intervals as the frequency of the mouse, per second. It is not delayed and it can't cause acceleration per software (but if a mouse has acceleration built in the ROM/bad MCU implementation, it can have acceleration via HW even if you use Raw Input method).

After that, the info sent from the OS still will be manipulated by the game itself, which can be a new host of problems wink.gif
post #12 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeMS View Post

- Raw Input : It fetches all the data from the mouse in a raw state, so it fetches the same number of intervals as the frequency of the mouse, per second. It is not delayed and it can't cause acceleration per software (but if a mouse has acceleration built in the ROM/bad MCU implementation, it can have acceleration via HW even if you use Raw Input method).


So why would his mouse do what happened at the end of the video at 3500 DPI where it kind of craps out.

Does the death adder have minute built in acceleration. Assuming he kept the same arm speed at 1800 dpi and 3500dpi (not likely but probably close) What would have cause that mouse to basically seize up about 30-40 degrees from where it should have been
     
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post #13 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by PappaSmurfsHarem View Post

So why would his mouse do what happened at the end of the video at 3500 DPI where it kind of craps out.
Does the death adder have minute built in acceleration. Assuming he kept the same arm speed at 1800 dpi and 3500dpi (not likely but probably close) What would have cause that mouse to basically seize up about 30-40 degrees from where it should have been

I suggest you look at it from the perspective of Hardware / Software duality.

His software is not limiting his experiment as it's inputting the info directly from the mouse, so it must be a hardware "artifact" :
Mouse sensors can keep up to a certain number of counts, after which they might have erratic movement or discard any further data (which is known as negative accel) for that update.

In the case of the DA3.5G, it can keep up with high speeds on it's native setting of 1800CPI. As far as I know, the 3500CPI setting should be native too, but for some reason it doesn't achieve the same perfect control speed (probably because it's inputting almost the double information and as such, even if getting far more counts, it might get bottlenecked by some architecture implementation decision).

TL;DR :
It's the mouse sensor's/MCU/ROM fault, it's not related by the settings he's using.

Although I'm quite curious to see him moving his hand faster than 4m/s to be honest smile.gif

Quick ninja-dirty edit : As far as I'm aware, the DA shouldn't exhibit any accel on the 1800CPI setting, nor on the 3500CPI setting. IF the 450 and 900CPI steps are not native, it could exhibit some very minor incoherencies, but nothing that you could easily feel or notice unless you knew exactly what to check (and hat the senses trained to feel it).
Edited by DeMS - 2/23/12 at 5:58pm
post #14 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeMS View Post

I suggest you look at it from the perspective of Hardware
Software duality.
His software is not limiting his experiment as it's inputting the info directly from the mouse, so it must be a hardware "artifact" :
Mouse sensors can keep up to a certain number of counts, after which they might have erratic movement or discard any further data (which is known as negative accel) for that update.
In the case of the DA3.5G, it can keep up with high speeds on it's native setting of 1800CPI. As far as I know, the 3500CPI setting should be native too, but for some reason it doesn't achieve the same perfect control speed (probably because it's inputting almost the double information and as such, even if getting far more counts, it might get bottlenecked by some architecture implementation decision).
TL;DR :
It's the mouse sensor's/MCU/ROM fault, it's not related by the settings he's using.
Although I'm quite curious to see him moving his hand faster than 4m/s to be honest smile.gif
Quick ninja-dirty edit : As far as I'm aware, the DA shouldn't exhibit any accel on the 1800CPI setting, nor on the 3500CPI setting. IF the 450 and 900CPI steps are not native, it could exhibit some very minor incoherencies, but nothing that you could easily feel or notice unless you knew exactly what to check (and hat the senses trained to feel it).

You sir are the man.
     
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post #15 of 20
Thread Starter 
really awesome and informative information guys.

i just wanted to add that in future videos i'll get my gf (who i corrupted into becoming a PC FPS player, muhaha) to film it from a much better angle so things are clearer overall and so you can see my hand as well as the monitor. i know it is misleading the way i filmed it here, having to hold the camera and all, but this is the first test of its kind for my channel, so i apologize for that.

in my experience, the 3.5G DA tends to hit a neg accel limit at 450, 900, or 3500 dpi (i think i read somewhere else on this forum that it is ~2.5 m/s?) but at 1800 dpi i've never been able to make the mouse neg accel, much less skip (limit is 4 m/s or greater from esreality's graph from what i have seen). the point here is mainly that RAW input is the only way to truly test a mouse sensor as that mode reads directly from it. i was demonstrating the excellent low sensitivity performance of the DA here for FPS gaming.

some awesome info here, i'm actually about to finish a computer engineering bachelor of science myself and i'm glad some really knowledgeable people are clarifying how the embedded mouse system actually works, really helpful and really fascinating thumb.gif
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post #16 of 20
Nice video thumb.gif +rep

I have a DA 3.5G and its my favorite mouse thus far and IMO actually tracks better then a lachesis and has better lift off characteristics. I have been using my on the 3500DPI setting but after this video I've got to do some testing on the 1800DPI setting biggrin.gif
    
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post #17 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

Nice video thumb.gif +rep
I have a DA 3.5G and its my favorite mouse thus far and IMO actually tracks better then a lachesis and has better lift off characteristics. I have been using my on the 3500DPI setting but after this video I've got to do some testing on the 1800DPI setting biggrin.gif

thanks man, yeah, the DA works way better at very low sensitivity on 1800 DPI. just make sure that if you are playing in a game that doesn't support RAW input that you set windows to 3/11 with EPP off so you don't hit any windows-induced neg accel.

which lachesis do you have? it seems that whether you have the new or old one, that "down and to the right" Z axis issue seems to be prevalent. i just played on a RAT5 today and it had the same issue, but at low senstivity it's barely noticeable, and that thing had amazing low sens tracking even on 4000 dpi. I'm still not sure that Z axis thing is as big a deal as people make it out to be, at least to competitive FPS players playing on a low sens. but regardless IMO the Lachesis is very uncomfortable. i like the DA shape a lot, lot better. plus it doesn't have that Z axis issue at all.

also off topic, but can anyone else confirm the 1000 Hz problem i showed earlier in the video? DIMR shows a pretty steady 500 Hz when i use that though, but 1000 Hz is pretty messed up.
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post #18 of 20
It was the old model. I had to retire it due to it having some odd issue like Y-axis stopping working and so on. Most likely the cord had a damaged lead. It went completely dead after a failed firmware flash. The shape never really bothered thou it was not as my current DA. The biggest issue IMO was the lift off and re contact as it had this nasty tendency to make the cursor wiggle around just before contact with the pad. Of course all mice do that but with the lachesis it was much more pronounced.
    
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post #19 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

It was the old model. I had to retire it due to it having some odd issue like Y-axis stopping working and so on. Most likely the cord had a damaged lead. It went completely dead after a failed firmware flash. The shape never really bothered thou it was not as my current DA. The biggest issue IMO was the lift off and re contact as it had this nasty tendency to make the cursor wiggle around just before contact with the pad. Of course all mice do that but with the lachesis it was much more pronounced.

haha yep. i bricked my friend's original Lachesis just the other day with a firmware flash. somehow he was still under his 2-year warranty so he did the usual cut-the-cord and take-a-pic method and RMA'd to Razer. i hear that if you do so much as just blow into the sensor or clean it a bit, the mouse will return to normal tracking for this particular mouse. really expensive mouse... so stupid that firmware bricks seem to be somewhat common. the DA is about as much as i feel like spending on any mouse really, ~$50.
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post #20 of 20
My was over 3 years old but still I expected a mouse as expensive as a Lachesis to last longer. And trust me I tried everything to fix it q-tips, alcohol. I even took it apart for a super thorough cleaning. When the firmware flash failed it didn't actually go completely dead. I just kept getting the "Sorry, fimrware update failed. Disconnect the product and plug it in again. Repeat steps for Firmware Update" over and over. As a last ditch effort I even swapped out the cord for an old logitech one but no dice. So never again will I spend that kind of money on a mouse and honestly there is no reason to as the DeathAdder is one damn good mouse.
    
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