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[Fud] Kepler GK104 cards in production - Page 9

post #81 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeles View Post

The comparisons are not pointless - they're quite valid. I highlighted the 560Ti, a fully functional card, vs. the 6950, a partially disabled card. The 6950 wins by 6%, is 7% larger than the 560Ti, and the die isn't even fully functional! Meanwhile, the 6970 is only 7% larger than the 560Ti (since it's the same die as the 6950) and outperforms it by 16%. Thus Cayman is roughly 9% faster than GTX 500 given the same die space.
What's that got to do with anything? That was their design choice, and if it isn't working for them, that gives my point even more credibility. Is that not the whole point of AMD's Sweet Spot strategy? They avoid the gigantic, monolithic dies of doom and the headaches associated with creating them, and are better able to optimize their smaller units.
Now, Nvidia absolutely had some wins over AMD with their Fermi refresh. They beat AMD in heavy tessellation applications. CUDA is much easier to program for than AMD's APP, which generally allows them to score much higher in compute benchmarks. Driver support is much better... AMD flopped pretty bad last fall, and Nvidia's still killing AMD at Skyrim. Also, from what I understand, GTX 500 overclocks a bit better than HD 6000.
However, in regards to gaming specifically, AMD had the better architecture.
A fan boy wouldn't have facts to back themselves up. Brand doesn't matter to me... I'll get what's better for my dollar. Thanks for showing how brainwashed you are by the Kepler hype... you clearly didn't read my post.

Homeless.

Both strategies have their own advantages and disadvantages. Obviously nVidia sees a future in maintaining this strategy. If you ask me what my statement has to do with anything, it's simple, not every fool can build a big fast chip -- note I do take some of your sarcasm in regard. nVidia is willingly pushing itself to meet certain specs and feels that it is more important than showing up to the fight on time. A company that can build a chip such as G80 sure knows how to build reasonable sized GPUs. They can even build cute GPUs like G92. I'm not an engineer at nVidia so I won't try to explain why they adopted the build'em big strategy. I can only guess that it has something to do with their dream of building a giant parallel processing unit.

As for comparing die size. You compare gaming performance/mm² and that is something that is pointless when comparing two GPUs created by companies with a different vision. Just as you say AMD needs to build small GPUs to keep their strategy going, while nVidia needs their big GPUs (I assume because of the HPC market). The "what-ifs" aren't going to bring us anywhere.

- What if AMD built a 520mm² chip, would it have crushed Fermi or would it end up being broken since AMD's smaller R&D team already struggled getting a 420mm² ASIC out of the door (R600) on a mature production process? Would a said HD 5970 or HD 6990 even be possible?

- What if nVidia dropped the HPC and CUDA environment and built a gaming oriented Fermi GPU with 128TMUs and 32 ROPs and less CUDA cores and cache instead with higher clocks? Would it totally own even the 7970?

Do you get what I mean with pointless? The GPUs are released as they are according to their strategy. After the Fermi and Cypress refresh both manufacturers had ASICs with similar physics at the designated price points.
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post #82 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by go4life View Post

My God, this war between fanboys is almost worse than playing CoD where 12year olds tell you how dirty your mom is.
I for one, buys what has the most performance. I do not care if its AMD or Nvidia, or if one card uses 50w less than the other.
We are on OCN for Christs sake! Does "The pursuit of performance" mean anything at all to some of you? Less power is good no doubt, but I would choose the stronger card compared to the performance per watt winner every single time.
Anyways, I am very exited that they finally is starting to produce these cards! Can't wait to see how the performance is and how it will compete with AMD's 28nm smile.gif

+ rep also... It is worse.. because these are full grown (wo)men doing the same thing 12 year olds do.
 
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post #83 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 View Post

Do you get what I mean with pointless? The GPUs are released as they are according to their strategy. After the Fermi and Cypress refresh both manufacturers had ASICs with similar physics at the designated price points.

All you're saying here is "their strategies are different, so you can't compare them." Have you ever considered the possibility of one strategy being better than the other?
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post #84 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperTeamTango View Post

+ rep. Made my day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpriest667 View Post

+ rep also... It is worse.. because these are full grown (wo)men doing the same thing 12 year olds do.

Thanks guys smile.gif
And indeed Darkpriest!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 View Post

Homeless.
Both strategies have their own advantages and disadvantages. Obviously nVidia sees a future in maintaining this strategy. If you ask me what my statement has to do with anything, it's simple, not every fool can build a big fast chip -- note I do take some of your sarcasm in regard. nVidia is willingly pushing itself to meet certain specs and feels that it is more important than showing up to the fight on time. A company that can build a chip such as G80 sure knows how to build reasonable sized GPUs. They can even build cute GPUs like G92. I'm not an engineer at nVidia so I won't try to explain why they adopted the build'em big strategy. I can only guess that it has something to do with their dream of building a giant parallel processing unit.
As for comparing die size. You compare gaming performance/mm² and that is something that is pointless when comparing two GPUs created by companies with a different vision. Just as you say AMD needs to build small GPUs to keep their strategy going, while nVidia needs their big GPUs (I assume because of the HPC market). The "what-ifs" aren't going to bring us anywhere.
- What if AMD built a 520mm² chip, would it have crushed Fermi or would it end up being broken since AMD's smaller R&D team already struggled getting a 420mm² ASIC out of the door (R600) on a mature production process? Would a said HD 5970 or HD 6990 even be possible?
- What if nVidia dropped the HPC and CUDA environment and built a gaming oriented Fermi GPU with 128TMUs and 32 ROPs and less CUDA cores and cache instead with higher clocks? Would it totally own even the 7970?
Do you get what I mean with pointless? The GPUs are released as they are according to their strategy. After the Fermi and Cypress refresh both manufacturers had ASICs with similar physics at the designated price points.

^ Best post yet! Rep+
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post #85 of 226
the only reason I support nvidia more is my mobo doesn't support CFX. if it did both I wouldn't give a damn. Its really that simple.
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post #86 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeles View Post

All you're saying here is "their strategies are different, so you can't compare them." Have you ever considered the possibility of one strategy being better than the other?

Subjective mostly.

I'm going to say that I like the build'em big strategy and you're probably going to say that you like the scalable design seeing as you have 6950s. I don't mind having to deal with higher temps and power consumption as long as the chip has potential. Personally I'm glad that I went with these 470s. As it turned out that if you clock these cards over 800MHz (which they do quite easily), it matches or slightly exceeds OC'ed 6970s/6950s. The 5870 and 5850 were good cards too but don't have as much potential. Having a smaller die and better physics at the cost of tesselation and geometry output.

I do mind the wait though. There's a possiblity that one can deduce that one strategy is superior than the other though, from the consumer market we can conclude that AMD's strategy wins hands down (lower manufacturing costs and delivering products on time). From an HPC and development perspective the conclusion is not as clear cut. After all a fully functional, non-broken GF100 with the physics it was meant to have released with, would have destroyed AMD's Cypress. So if they can pull this build'em big strategy off properly it is a winning strategy. For now it seems like they bit off more than they can chew. But I say let them try, since it brings innovation to the market instead of a conservative +20% each gen with cute little chips -- not pointing at a specific SKU btw wink.gif
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post #87 of 226
Ohh look more rumors.......Not interested. Give us hard evidence and actual real benchmarks.
 
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post #88 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 View Post

Subjective mostly.

For us consumers it may be subjective, but I would imagine that AMD's strategy would be gaining them substantial market share. That's important for them, because the more people that they can show that AMD GPUs aren't problematic pieces of junk, the more they can break down the Nvidia bias. There are an absurd amount of people that refuse to buy AMD GPUs because they bought a Nvidia GPU back in the day where Nvidia completely dominated the market.
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post #89 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeles View Post

For us consumers it may be subjective, but I would imagine that AMD's strategy would be gaining them substantial market share. That's important for them, because the more people that they can show that AMD GPUs aren't problematic pieces of junk, the more they can break down the Nvidia bias. There are an absurd amount of people that refuse to buy AMD GPUs because they bought a Nvidia GPU back in the day where Nvidia completely dominated the market.

nVidia established its reputation too. After all ATI is the oldest of the two.

I actually mean that it's subjective whether the strategy is called a winning one or failing. nVidia still conquers the HPC market where a lot of money is being made. At our university we have courses to program CUDA powered devices in cooperation with nVidia. All major WSs in our lab have dual Tesla C2075 cards (which are fail in consumer eyes since it's GF100). It really is subjective, hence the two companies maintain their own strategies. After all each company has it's own vision.
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post #90 of 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfc89 View Post

Ohh look more rumors.......Not interested. Give us hard evidence and actual real benchmarks.

This. We don't even have any data yet, but it's supposed to come out in march? Seems a lil close to the wire here.
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