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[kotaku] PlayStation 4 Ditching The Cell Processor - Page 13

post #121 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackVenom View Post

Kinda sucks for the devs that bothered with learning. I'm wondering if this will lesson the incentive to build on the PS3 knowing the cell will die w/ it.

I would be very leery of learning a complex implementation with a dead end application.
    
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post #122 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Frosty View Post

Makes sense, another Cell implementation would meen they would have to use XDR ram which is more expensive then DDR3, also the chip itself would cost a small fortune t put into each console.
They've simply done it for cost reasons, another reason could be that AMD are not making Sony a GPU, But rather a full fledged APU thus making the need for a separate CPU redundant.

I'm seriously doubting they couldn't have given the Cell processor a DDR3 memory controller.
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post #123 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrews2547 View Post

I thought 4K is QuadHD confused.gif

Nah. QuadHD 3840x2160 is and 4K is 4096x2304.
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post #124 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylon View Post

I did not mean to offend anyone. I agree with most of you. Sony has made some terrible mistakes in the past few years. Who said everything had to be made easy? Do you know why they want to make it easy for developers? To attract more of them to develop for the platform. Because it is simply easier in every way. Sony at the time was looking at the future, where hopefully a studio takes the PS3 and codes something that actually uses all of the hardware, to produce something amazing that will set it apart from the 360 and MAKE MORE SALES.
Sure, it would've been much better had they approached major studios and asked for their input when finalizing the hardware for the PS3. That's not the case, you have to remember this is a Japanese company, not a American company. Unless you understand the difference in culture, the difference even in everyday life. You will not fully understand why they made such move. Sony has a history of pushing, they rarely have been a company to just sit back and take it. They pioneered some now dated technology but the point is at one time that was mainstream. It's the same thing they tried with the PS3.
Sadly, a lot of developers just complained that it was simply too difficult to code, in comparison to the 360. No one said your job was going to be easy. Thus, Sony lost out on alot of good stuff. Explains why this time around, they are not pushing as hard. I just hope they have better launch titles when the PS4 is out the door, the Vita is just a big let down in the game department. I mean, you finally release a portable console with a good screen, dual thumb sticks....and what games do you try to push on people at launch? Crappy racing games that really don't need 2 thumb sticks at all. Ashphault (0.99 on Android Market and iOS), ridgeracer (horrible reviews), modnation racer (yeah....I'll spend 300 bucks on hardware to play this), and motorstorm RC....looks strangely like the iOS and Android hit Reckless Racing 1/2. I was at Wal-mart the other day, saw 2 vitas and wanted to pick up one sooo bad. Just couldn't do it because theres no games at all. No twisted metal, killzone, GT. Guess they don't want my money.

Difficult to use for the sake of difficulty makes no sense. It wasn't as if all the power the cell provided was actually needed. Again, games are almost never bottlenecked by the CPU, so it was unnecessary to make a processor with all that extra power. So in short, lots of power that wasn't needed and was extra difficult to utilize. Completely unnecessary, and expensive to develop for. I fail to see the benefit to this. I've heard comments where people say it would be awesome if the PS4 had something like an i7 9xx in it, and I'm actually hoping it doesn't, that would be extremely wasteful as no game will utilize an i7 9xx CPU to 100%, especially on a console where it is extremely optimized. The cell was overkill, and difficult to use.

As to Vita's launch titles, it is unfortunate, but the launch of almost all gaming platforms are like that. Give the Vita a few months and I think we'll see great things, I'm already extremely pleased with mine.
Edited by lordikon - 3/2/12 at 8:44am
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post #125 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

Difficult to use for the sake of difficulty makes no sense. It wasn't as if all the power the cell provided was actually needed. Again, games are almost never bottlenecked by the CPU, so it was unnecessary to make a processor with all that extra power. So in short, lots of power that wasn't needed and was extra difficult to utilize. Completely unnecessary, and expensive to develop for. I fail to see the benefit to this. I've heard comments where people say it would be awesome if the PS4 had something like an i7 9xx in it, and I'm actually hoping it doesn't, that would be extremely wasteful as no game will utilize an i7 9xx CPU to 100%, especially on a console where it is extremely optimized. The cell was overkill, and difficult to use.
As to Vita's launch titles, it is unfortunate, but the launch of almost all gaming platforms are like that. Give the Vita a few months and I think we'll see great things, I'm already extremely pleased with mine.

As for yout first point, this is SONY you are talking about. Their closer to home divisions make very few sensible decisions, and if they ever do, it gets removed in the next generation tongue.gif

Second, optimization works both ways. Can be optimized to use as few HW resources as possible, but also can be optimized to take full advantage of as much HW as possible.

Last, yeah, the 3DS didn't really pick of until the price drop + some good titles, now. So the Vita is still up in the air.
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post #126 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by ablearcher View Post

As for yout first point, this is SONY you are talking about. Their closer to home divisions make very few sensible decisions, and if they ever do, it gets removed in the next generation tongue.gif
Second, optimization works both ways. Can be optimized to use as few HW resources as possible, but also can be optimized to take full advantage of as much HW as possible.
Last, yeah, the 3DS didn't really pick of until the price drop + some good titles, now. So the Vita is still up in the air.

Yea I would hope that Sony would eventually learn that making things more difficult is not going to earn them any rewards. It sometimes feels like Sony's games division is going down the same path that Nintendo did right around the N64 release. Developers wanted optical media so they could hold more information for their games, Nintendo basically said they didn't give a crap and were going to do hardware the way they wanted and that developers could deal with it, and that's a large reason why the PSOne succeeded in the way that it did. Fast-forward to today, you have Sony's PS3, designed the way they wanted it to be done, regardless of how difficult it is for the developers to use, and consequently Sony's marketshare continues to fall. Sony needs to wake up and realize that it's a team effort, and that their console cannot succeed without the support of developers. Based on what the article in the OP is talking about it sounds like Sony might have had a wake-up call finally. Hopefully the PS4 will be a completely redone device in terms of development, with a clean and easy to use SDK, and something like that can only be good for all parties involved: Games that can be made faster and for less money will mean more games for the consumer, and possibly lower prices (although I doubt it), higher profits for developers, and Sony will have more titles for their consoles. Win-win-win situation.
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post #127 of 137

Maybe they could fix it where the ps3 games are on store?

That way if you own the game Just insert the disk in the system And let the store verify You have a legit copy.

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post #128 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by disturbed117 View Post

Maybe they could fix it where the ps3 games are on store?
That way if you own the game Just insert the disk in the system And let the store verify You have a legit copy.

The problem is that the cell processor in the PS3 is so different from what the PS4 is likely to use, which means either the PS4 would have to have a PS3 built into it, or the PS3 will need to be emulated by the PS4. It is very doubtful that a PS4 would be powerful enough to properly emulate a PS3, and the PS3 hardware isn't exactly cheap, so it's unlikely they'll include it in the PS4.

What would be nice is if they offered different models of PS4, one with the PS3 built-in, one without. For people that wanted to keep their PS3, they could get the PS4 without PS3 built-in.
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post #129 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post


The problem is that the cell processor in the PS3 is so different from what the PS4 is likely to use, which means either the PS4 would have to have a PS3 built into it, or the PS3 will need to be emulated by the PS4. It is very doubtful that a PS4 would be powerful enough to properly emulate a PS3, and the PS3 hardware isn't exactly cheap, so it's unlikely they'll include it in the PS4.
What would be nice is if they offered different models of PS4, one with the PS3 built-in, one without. For people that wanted to keep their PS3, they could get the PS4 without PS3 built-in.

I'm not talking emulation.

do like they are doing the ps2 games. Convert them over to the New arch.
 

 

 

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post #130 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSprunk View Post

so much facepalm. These guys seem to be showing their ignorance. They know games, but not underlying hardware.
AMD may well indeed supply the GPU, but they don't make the right kind of processors to supply the CPU. Plain and simple. Sony learned the hardway about making significant architectural changes and what impact that has on developer enthusiasm, costs, etc. x86 architecture chips (the kind of CPU's Intel and AMD make) are very different animals than PowerPC architecture (The kind that Cell, Xenon - the xbox 360 processor, and the processors you'd find in most consoles in the past decade have been based on, save the PS2, which was a sony-toshiba venture) chips. That argument that "but since PC's run on x86 and many games come out on PC and console they wouldn't have to change much" line is crap. It'd be a totally new paradigm, again, because consoles don't come loaded with windows/linux and all of the pipelines, drivers, api's etc etc they bring with them. Those would be hand crafted, again. so you couldn't just copy paste the PC version over to the PS4 or vice versa. It wouldn't work. It'd be developer hell all over again
And another thing, all this talk about "CELL is hard to develop for" is about half a decade out of date. First of all, Cell was launched back when multi-threaded processing was a relatively new thing. Sure, x86 and PPC both had multi-core architectures before, but they were built and used with the understanding that single threaded performance was the primary focus, and that the bulk of the software running on it would be explicitly single threaded, with the OS splitting the load across the cores. This meant you could design a piece of software for a single core, and it'd run just fine on a multi-core chip, albiet running on only one of it's cores. The OS/chip would coordinate one which single-threaded process would be assigned to which core, but that's basically (oversimplified, and not explicitly true, but generally speaking) how it worked. That's not how CELL works. It was explicitly Multi-core only. You couldn't just have 8 seperate things divided any which way across the cores. It wasn't built liek that, not all cores were created equal. You HAD to design it for multi-threading, and THAT was a fairly new concept to game developers. The fact that it was also a different architecture than the previous playstation, didn't help. however, after a developer had made a game or 2 for the PS3/ a few years in, it was no harder to develop for than an Xbox or PC. The games were all the same building, the PS3 just had a unique foundation.
Cell helped usher in the age and mindset of true multithreaded programming. as opposed to the previous status quo of several single threaded apps being juggled about multiple cores.
Sony and Toshiba will most likely develop Emotion Engine 2, or continue their co-op development with IBM and use a PowerPC derivative of some sort. PowerPC has long been a staple in the console gaming market, and was the foundation of CELL itself, and the newest PowerPC implements a lot of what IBM learned from the cell project into it, but has a much wider user/developer/information base than Cell did, so it's a logical progression. but it will NOT be an AMD x86 processor.



You are sadly mistaken, if you think it is hard to port to X86 PC, to consol or Vice Verse, over the fact that the Cell is easy to program to?

 

If a game was designed for the Xbox, it can easily be ported to the PlayStation, if they are both based on X86. Matter of fact, something like this would only take a few months. So your whole ignorant argument above is moot. The reason to seek out X86 is development cost, u make one game and sell it on 3 platforms. Thus more developers make stuff for your Playstation.

 

The Cell's power was rarely utilized, because you had to spend years trying to learn how to program for the Cell. Years wasted... when you could've just been building/coding a game, instead of trying to figure how to code.

 

 

Secondly, AMD's APU fits the bill precisely....    because somehow it is going to be another RISC type cpu because you are unable to understand what an APU is?

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