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[SA]Sony Playstation 4 will have a x86 CPU - Page 17

post #161 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by John-117 View Post

I remember Microsoft wanted out-of-order execution for the Xbox 360, but PowerPC didn't do that back then.
x86 is much more versatile and I think Sony is doing something very smart here. I wouldn't want Bulldozer for my PC, but for a console I think it would be great. After all, games will nearly always be GPU limited on console.
And back then, 2005-2006, single core performance of an Intel x86 Core 2 Duo at 2Ghz was higher than the Xbox's and PS3's PowerPC at 3.2Ghz. In most cases and as much as you can compare them. So, Bulldozer at 3 - 4Ghz is a huge improvement. Plus all the threads available...

proof.gif
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post #162 of 272
Let's assume this IS true (I dont think it is), and that Valve's Steam console rumor is also true, and have a little fun: What if Sony and Valve Team up to launch PS4 with Steam as its gaming platform. How badass would that be? Instant. Victory.

EDIT: I originally had the above idea last. But then I realized it was the best/funnest (if probably not the most likely) thing I'd written out of this whole essay.
I doubt this. Very highly. At least an x86 AMD chip. Maybe AMD's got some crazy ARM thing that sony will use (they have been intending to go the arm route). The short version of why: Every advantage they gain by moving to a familiar platform is nullified by the lack of a familiar environment/SDK on that platform due to the lack of a common OS (eg: windows) and all of the hooks, api's, drivers, and optimizations it provides.

PC's may be x86, but sony will not run Windows on their machines, which instantaneously nullifies many of the oft-touted advantages of using x86 in a console: a familiar development environment. No directX, no OS layer providing management, hooks, and low-level optimizations for you, etc etc. They may run linux, which gives them OpenGL, which I think would be fantastic, and could really be the kick in the rear that linux needs to "go mainstream" (Gaming is just about the only major "failure" of Linux compared to windows on a spec sheet), but I dont see it happening. More likely than windows, but improbable; despite being the best option I think.

So this means you're probably going to get a home-brew OS on x86 if it happens. which means back to the drawing board for developers, x86 is an amazingly complex chip, and I think it would be fascinating if sony went this route, but It'd definitely be complicated. Shouldn't be as bad as cell, but if they stick to PowerPC based architecture that means that's one less platform as a whole that developers have to work for. the Xbox 360 (I submit that we call it the xbox revolution) uses PowerPC, the Cell is based on PowerPC, so if PS4 stuck to a modern PPC that would be a major bonus for developers, which would be a bonus to Sony.

I think we've seen that users dont really care about the specs of a console, sure they use it to throw mud but at the end of the day it's about fun, cost, and choice. And by substantially differentiating your hardware polarizes the gaming industry, which in turn reduces the ease/speed in which developers can create games and to what degree they can take advantage of the available hardware, ultimately increasing costs, reducing a platforms game library, and seriously crippling your platform.
    
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post #163 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSprunk View Post

Let's assume this IS true (I dont think it is), and that Valve's Steam console rumor is also true, and have a little fun: What if Sony and Valve Team up to launch PS4 with Steam as its gaming platform. How badass would that be? Instant. Victory.

The idea itself isn't that bad at all. I don't see why Steamworks couldn't be a service for a console that also has an own service. It could run on a PS4 like Boxee software runs on other devices and Itunes does on PCs. It would mean lots of console sales. They give a small percentage to Sony and off you go.
 
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post #164 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by raclimja View Post

proof.gif

Exactly, Power had OoO for quite awhile before that. They chose not to use that part of the ISA to make the chips cheaper. not to mention OoO isnt an issue with a closed platform with bare metal programming techniques.
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post #165 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSprunk View Post

Let's assume this IS true (I dont think it is), and that Valve's Steam console rumor is also true, and have a little fun: What if Sony and Valve Team up to launch PS4 with Steam as its gaming platform. How badass would that be? Instant. Victory.

Seeing as the PS3 version of Portal 2 (and CS:GO will as well) had steamworks integration allowing crossplatform multiplayer, steam chat, etc I'd consider this as not entirely unlikely.
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post #166 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by punker View Post


Bulldozer is just a Pentium 4 Class processor with 4 cores and 8 threads 8 so called cores
Also more then likely it will not be Fusion/Llano-like architecture No one in the right mind would use a IGP for a gamming system.
poor choice for a game system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by punker View Post

Who cares it's slower then older gen architecture that amd has. it's useless with it's deep pipeline like the Pentium 4.
Also I am claiming it's just a updated version of the Pentium 4
"8 cores" = E-pen is....
I once ranted about this.

Oh and I'm not sure what the connection between P4 and BD is, they're entirely different processor architectures (several in the case of P4) from entirely different companies. Saying that BD is an updated P4 carries about as much weight and is about as accurate as saying the new Ford Focus is just an updated version of some other completely unrelated device that has 4 wheels and transports people. High clockspeeds is nothing new, it wasn't when P4 came out nor was it when BD came out.
post #167 of 272
Well this is rumoured to support DX11 games.
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post #168 of 272
The number of posts in this thread that I facepalm'd to over the last few days is very high.

The chance of AMD using an APU in the PS4 rather than a CPU with a dedicated (and separated) GPU is slim to none. They need a GPU that is about 8-10x faster than the PS3 in order to make a console that will last them from late 2013 to probably 2020, and I don't know of any APUs that offer that kind of performance.

It's quite possible that the PS4 will use a derivative of Bulldozer. The PS4 is slated to come out around late 2013. Bulldozer CPUs are very capable of doing good things. Sadly, unless a program is pretty much made for Bulldozer and the instructions that it can use, its capability will not be realized on an x86 PC environment. However, on a console it's a whole different environment. Developers know it will be the only CPU they would have to code for, so the OS in the PS4, and all games could take full advantage of everything Bulldozer has to offer. In short, it would be more than capable of running any game a console would need. The question is can AMD make a Bulldozer derivative that will be efficient enough to run in a console? And to those saying an i7 would be better, you might be right, but it's a console and games are almost never bottlenecked by a CPU, so it really doesn't matter if the i7 is more powerful, you would likely never get to see that power put to use. Sony needs to be smart with their hardware decisions for the PS4, they need to go cheap on the CPU, and go big on GPU, RAM, and VRAM, and make it all very easy to develop for. Using x86 could be a huge benefit because Sony would get to use all existing x86 optimizations, and it would likely be easy for Sony to setup an easy to use SDK that most programmers are familiar with.

If I had to take a wild guess as to what level of hardware will be in the PS4, assuming AMD is contracted for both the CPU and GPU I would estimate that it would have a Bulldozer derivative that consumes around 65 watts, has 4 cores and supports 8 threads. All threads would have access to system memory unlike the Cell processor. There's also the chance that the architecture might have unified memory like the Xbox 360, allowing the developer to use more memory for CPU or GPU-related tasks, depending on the situation. I estimate it will have 6-8GB of memory, ~10GB of total ram if you combine RAM/VRAM. And finally, I estimate a GPU that is roughly equivalent to a 6970 or 7950 (might sound like a lot for a console now, but it is still almost 2 years away).

I also estimate a similar hardware configuration for the next Xbox.
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post #169 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

I estimate it will have 6-8GB of memory, ~10GB of total ram if you combine RAM/VRAM.


The rest I think you're pretty on par with, this I do not. I think 6-8gb of RAM would be overkill in a console, taking into consideration just how little RAM the current generation has. 4gb is probably more likely and I think even then that might be stretching it.

 

Also factor in costs aswell. RAM might not be expensive, but when you're manufacturing millions of units that little bit extra here and there will soon mount up. Then there's placement of the RAM chips, aswell as cooling.


Edited by Lifeshield - 3/5/12 at 8:41am
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post #170 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifeshield View Post


The rest I think you're pretty on par with, this I do not. I think 6-8gb of RAM would be overkill in a console, taking into consideration just how little RAM the current generation has. 4gb is probably more likely and I think even then that might be stretching it.

 

Also factor in costs aswell. RAM might not be expensive, but when you're manufacturing millions of units that little bit extra here and there will soon mount up. Then there's placement of the RAM chips, aswell as cooling.


I agree, I cant see them putting more then 4gb in the systems.

 

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