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post #21 of 31
The B&C 10" you're looking at there should work fine with some limitations- I'll share the following for you to contemplate..

The 98dB sensitivity rating is a bit optimistically derived. I'd rate it more like 96 or 97 based on the manufacture response charts.

There's a 10dB breakup peak at 3K that will need a steep x-over to tame. This is a typical breakup point for 10" drivers but this one is a bit less forgiving than others.

impedance dips pretty low on these- (6ohm), if you're going to use a tube amp make sure this isn't going to be a problem.

Speaker sensitivity ratings assume 2pi space loading. In the real world, as the size of the wavelength being played becomes larger than the baffle that the speakers are mounted to, there is a transition to 4pi space loading which causes as much as a 6dB "loss" at the listening position. This is called baffle step loss and is the reason that you will never get 98dB sensitivity from that woofer in a real world free standing speaker design. With a single woofer design you can plan on a final system sensitivity of around 90-94dB per channel depending on how much BSC needs to be implemented for your speaker placement. You don't need to horn load the ribbon for the addition of a second woofer, because technically speaking, you would NEED 2 woofers each with sensitivity close to the tweeter to get a final system whose sensitivity matching that of the tweeter... The Reason to "horn" load that tweeter, is to get controlled directivity and better low frequency extension, permitting the use of a lower x-over point to improve driver blending, reduce lobing, etc.

With a Qts of 0.19 and Fs of 52hz, it would take a lot of raw amplification and EQ to get much of any useful bass performance from these 10" B&C units- if I high sensitivity design is what you are after, these woofers will not do this in the bass range at all.... That's basically the result of the tradeoff that has been made in this design- In order to get 6mm Xmax and 98dB sensitivity on a 10" driver, they sacrificed the bottom end capability. These particular 10" drivers are best suited as a mid-range/mid-bass driver in a 3-way setup, crossed at around 80-200hz to some bass bins. In 0.5ft^3 sealed, they are -6dB @ 150hz- that would be the good natural x-over point to use IMO. Power requirements to EQ 50hz up to the fundamental would be 40X (+16dB) the regular amplification level being used. Vented would allow the x-over to some bass bins to drop an octave from sealed, but still doesn't "cover" the bottom end thoroughly enough to be used without bass reinforcement IMO.

If you want to expand it to a 3 way, you might consider a B&C 10MD26 as the mid-range unit instead of the 10PLB76. It charts out about 3dB higher on the sensitivity (gained by reducing the Xmax to 1.5mm) and does so with less apparent amplifier load (higher minimum impedance). The appropriate woofer configuration would be something like 2 x 15" or 18" woofers in parallel per side to match that for sensitivity after baffle step losses. [assuming you didn't want to have to pad down the mid or tweeter any]

If you're willing to cut back a bit on system sensitivity, A single 18" per side, and an 8" RCF midbass driver, and finally, the ribbon tweeter you are eyeing could be coupled to make a 3-way system with ~93dB sensitivity after baffle step- quite respectable really. Keep in mind that many pre-made speakers list a sensitivity rating that does not take into account baffle step losses, and are often USPL ratings that take advantage of higher amplifier loading, so you may be used to seeing a lot of speakers rated in the 85-95dB range in the consumer market, in truth, most of them are anywhere from 3-9dB LOWER than they claim to be.

Eric
Edited by mdocod - 3/15/12 at 6:58am
     
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post #22 of 31
Thread Starter 
Hey Eric, I have several subs in my system so I wasn't planning them to "go deep" I will look at that other driver that you suggested though as you have more experience at this than I do.

I guess you could say that I am doing a three way in the since that they are going to be crossed with a sub but I would really like a three way monitor in the future and then have the sub crossed at a lower point...say 40-55hz and have a sub that measures pretty flat from there down to say the mid to low teens before falling off.

I also did not know about this step loss that you speak of....I guess it was naive of me to think that manufacturers would have taken that into account.

I honestly have no problem at all with the low 90's in sensitivity....for me, i would rather aim high and get still really great results.

your idea with the 18" is similar to what I was thinking of doing in the future

I could simply get an additional 10" for a MTM design with some matching subs with 15 or 18 drivers for the low end....

OR

go with a super tweeter and the 15 or 18 for bass. I am still not sure how much of an improvement a supertweeter could offer me though.

I know this is also a departure from what I was planning on too but I got to looking at the scanspeak drivers the other day and they seem to be nice but have lower sensitivity ratings....are they more "conservative" with how they rate their products? They are a bit more affordable and so maybe skipping the ribbon for now and going with an MTM with all scanspeak may be more "bang for buck"
post #23 of 31
Thread Starter 
Honestly, I hate to say this as I really wanted one of those ribbon tweeters.....BUT I think I am going to wind up with a horn

a SEOS-15 with a B&C DE250 HF compression driver

and this 15" Eighteen Sound Driver

http://www.usspeaker.com/eighteensound-15MB700-1.htm

cabinet will be 17" Wide, 17" deep, and 25" tall

Puts the highs maybe slightly higher than ear level but the horn will improve on that and I can cross low enough to avoid lobbing hopefully
post #24 of 31
An MTM configuration with 10" mid-bass drivers is a tricky animal that can't really be done as a 2-way with the TPL-150. 10" drivers in an MTM separated by a large ribbon requires an x-over point about an octave or 2 lower than the TPL-150 can handle in order to couple the system into an effective point source. Crossing over an MTM too high will cause off-axis lulls in response from the 2 mid-bass drivers. (lobing). When I talked about adding a second 10" driver, I had a 2.5 way crossover in mind, where the bottom woofer is the 0.5 leg of the system that covers baffle step losses, it would be low passed at least an octave lower than the other 10" driver. (exact x-over point to be determined by baffle width and other considerations)

Implementing high crossover points to super tweeters will generally mean that you have "given in" to a dedicated listening position. lobing through the x-over to a super tweeter is almost guaranteed. Generally they are best used in systems that are highly directional and are listened to at greater distance. I personally shy away from them because I think they can cause more problems than they solve in typical home environments.

Using Scanspeak drivers would be a very different approach. They are in the business of very "hifi" oriented drivers, which means flat response and low distortion. "Pro-Sound" drivers can also have very low distortion, however, they tend to sacrifice flatness for efficiency. I don't have the sort of ears for picking out a dead flat response, but I do have ears that appreciate low distortion with lots of dynamic range, so I have a bit of a tendency towards pro-sound oriented builds.

I think you should worry less about using specific brands, and worry more about learning how to make drivers work together properly. There's no magical driver that can make up for a bad implementation. I think you've fallen victim to the idea that fancy drivers will solve problems for you. They won't.

If you want to go hifi and you are still learning, consider Dayton RS series drivers, they are a fraction of the cost of most boutique drivers but are insanely good performers. Check out Zaph Audio and his builds,... He has a 3.5 way using RS series drivers that you should check out. [ http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZDT3.5.html ]

If you want to go "Pro-Sound" for a high efficiency build, The DE250 is one of the finest 1" drivers for the money, there are a few others around half the price that are very nearly as good that I would be temped by [Selenium D220, Eminence PSD:2002], . The fancy waveguide, good stuff, I'd buy the $14 option from Dayton (H6512) and be happy personally, but that fiberglass SEOS does look beautiful. If the system has subs, I'd opt to pair to a 12" to get tighter driver spacing, better off axis response, and a closer dispersion match at x-over to the waveguide (see: B&C 12PE32). Actually, technically if it were me, I'd use an even smaller horn and an 8" RCF mid-bass but that's a bit different direction than what you are aiming for I think.


I think you may have misunderstood the point I was making about sensitivity ratings. It's not that these manufactures of drivers are being misleading, just that the way in which they "rate" sensitivity is not always going to play out for you in an actual implementation. Driver sensitivity rating are always based on 2pi space loading unless otherwise noted, it's a standard, however, there are other little "issues" that crop up that can modify a sensitivity spec in a way that is not beneficial to your usage... For example, the slightly optimistic sensitivity rating of that 10" B&C woofer I discussed previously, was more or less getting a "boost" to it's on-paper rating because part of the response used to determine it's sensitivity rating was up in it's breakup node, about an octave higher than you would be implementing it anyways. The 15" driver you are looking at from 18Sound now, has a response with a steady rise in sensitivity with higher frequency, which, if you wanted to filter out to be more flat, would kill some of that remarkable efficiency. Neat driver though for sure. The 12" B&C 12PE32 I mention above, on the other hand, appears to have a very useful response in the range you would be using it in... Obviously it's still going to take the hit on baffle step loss like any of these other drivers unless you stick it in a wall.

Regards,
Eric
Edited by mdocod - 3/15/12 at 10:42pm
     
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post #25 of 31
Thread Starter 
Eric, you my friend are a wealth of knowledge that is helping me learn this more and more. Even after reading books I still, obviously have alot to learn.

The 2.5 way approach had occured to me and my thought process was that it would be better way to go but at the same time I was thinking that the boost in sensitivity would not occur when they weren't handling the same frequency range....hence the reason I was talking about 2 way. My original idea was actually to have a MTW 3 way with an 8" mid, Ribbon tweeter, and 12" woofer. With this design the 8" and tweeter would be offset from center in opposite directions so that they could be closer together vertically and since it is the midrange that really holds soundstage together would be placed on the inside of the speaker closer to the viewing screen(best way I know how to explain what I was thinking)

I see about the sensitivity ratings. My mistake, that actually explaines they extremely wide baffles used in an open baffle system a little bit better. I always thought it was so that the sound waves didn't bind around the baffle and cancel out the sound....atleast that is what I got out of the books I have read about speaker design.

I honestly have tried not to get caught up in the price of things....I am attracked to scan speak because of the low distortion in the revelator series but I personally want high sensitivity cause I want to play with some bottlehead tube amps....already have a quickie ordered....after the tubes I want to build a First Watt F5 clone.....which doesnt have lots of "juice"

Some of the drivers I was looking at were the Eminence Alpha and Delta drivers and they have a higher sensitivity rating as well but i read that they aren't that good....I was also thinking of the Fountek NeoPro5i for a tweeter but the TPL does measure very well and I will admit that the exotic "pleated diaphram" did pull me in a bit....ScanSpeak is just the distortion that pulled me in....

i do like the Zaph designs but for a high sesnitive monitor design I did not see one of his thta would work. I have a rather small room and would have floor standing speakers if I could fit the....but I cant. Hence the reason for the monitors.

I am still a long way from having a solid build planned out as this is still in concept really....

I still want to keep the 3 way in mind if I can find drivers cheap enough to build it and get good results.....my goal is just to have sensitivity high enough to take full advantage of tubes so I would be more than happy with sensitivity anywhere above 90....like I said before, I like to aim high....

When you really think about it, the small horn with a 8" driver is actually very close to my original design idea except instead of a ribbon there would be a horn for the highs....that is actually very similar to the older JBL 4344 design you see here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17CnMjfAgDI

granted those are 4 way monitors with a 15" sub and a supertweeter....

what can I say though since I started working on this and looking around at different drivers? for high sensitivity you are going to be looking ALOT and that compression drivers are more affordable....I have looked at them before too but thought that it wouldnt work the greatest in a monitor with a mid as well.....i could have sworn that I read that a MHW design is not very good.....I may have dreamt it....I also shied away from horns because you not only have to buy a horn but the driver for the horn....

would you say it would be better to change directions and look at a MHW design Eric?
post #26 of 31
Thread Starter 
http://usspeaker.com/B&C-ME15-1.htm HORN http://usspeaker.com/B&C-DE250-1.htm Compression

http://usspeaker.com/B&C-8PE21-1.htm MID

http://usspeaker.com/B&C-12HPL64-1.htm Woofer

In a MHW alignment

threw this together real fast to make sure I was on the same page as you.....and this is way under what a single TPL would cost and would probably get me really good results
post #27 of 31
Hello madbrayniak,

The octagonal B&C frames are difficult to flush mount. Flush mounting is better but not absolutely necessary. something to consider smile.gif

The 8" you have linked to there has more sensitivity than required (would need to be padded down some) to match up to the woofer section, but it could be used.

I'd opt for a horn that claims loading down lower, like this one: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-802 Honestly though- these may just be rated differently and actually have similar loading characteristics. Hard to say.

The 12" woofer there seems to be incorrectly listed in the link as 100dB sensitive, it's actually like 98dB sensitive (see spec sheet for it). I knew there was something wrong with a spec in the link upon first glance, the Qts, Fs, and sensitivity did not "add up" to "possible" for a 12" driver. (have to be careful with these sorts of errors, I've seen drivers accidentally charted a full 5 to 10dB off from reality).

For a 3-way system, the x-over point between the woofer and mid-range can be your baffle step correction if it is well thought out. With that in mind, You can go with a mid-range unit with up to 6dB less sensitivity than the woofer depending on the expected amount of BSC necessary for your application. 6.5" drivers should also be on the menu for mid-range duty here.

For home builds where portability is not a concern, traditional ferrite magnet drivers are generally going to give you more "bang" for your buck. Most implementations of neodymium in the pro sound stuff are for weight savings, not performance. (There are a few exceptions)

The arrangement of the drivers on the baffle is a complex issue but there are some nice general rules of thumb that you can take into consideration for your build. Whether to arrange them traditional TMW or MTW would depend on the elevation of the completed speaker relative to the intended listening position. Time alignment is an important consideration, especially between mid and high frequency drivers, where small differences in distance from the listener can have significant effects. I suggest keeping the mid and tweeter in a vertical line, both offset to 1 side of the front baffle to mitigate prominent edge diffraction (though the horn will eliminate most diffraction issues for the high frequency so this isn't a major concern). If the tweeters will be below the listening position, mount tweeters above the midrange, if they are above the listening position, mount below the mid-range. Keep in mind that the reverse would be true in most cases for a dome or ribbon whose point of origin is basically in-line with the front baffle, rather than recessed several inches. The position of the woofer in this build is not likely to be a critical issue because your crossover point will probably be down around 300hz give or take depending on baffle width. As long as the center to center spacing from your woofer to your midrange is around 20" or less you should be in real good shape. (that' puts the x-over more than an octave below the driver spacing's equivalent wavelength size).

All that said, I would want to know more about the subwoofers that are intended to be used in this system- that would help determine what sort of woofer should be implemented on the mains, and whether or not they even need to be 3-way designs. If you run a stereo pair of active subs under the mains, then you can often run the subs up to the 100-200hz range and practically eliminate the need for a bass capable driver in the mains, which simplifies things. Some folks will actually use active subs to correct for baffle step loss in such a system, running the subs up into the 200-400hz range... This allows the main speakers to be designed around a higher sensitivity goal because the baffle step losses are being corrected for in a separate system.

Eric
Edited by mdocod - 3/16/12 at 11:13pm
     
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post #28 of 31
Thread Starter 
In a TMW layout the tweeter is too high.

The subs I have right now is a SVS PC12-NSD and I am also running a Paradigm PDR-8 for smoothing according to the Geddes Theory....ive had good results with it even though you are supposed to have one sub close to the ceiling as well. In the future I would like to either do an infinite baffle subwoofer or make two identical subs. They will not have the monitors resting ontop of them because of the entertainment center though....even though I would really like that....

I havent looked into it much yet but when i do get around to doing an infinite baffle in the future I was considering looking at having two, one with some 15 or 18 and then the other with 10 or 12s for the same smoothing of the response....but then again that does mean it would be harder to listen to music late at night when my wife is in bed....like right now

also i just grabbed the first mid that was high efficiency, not really looking at the specs haha. a 6.5" would work really well do to the hight limit I have in the entertainment center and they dont need to go that low due to the woofer....and with the sensitivity of the 12....i once again just grabbed it....not paying attention

do you know much about the rcf compression drivers and horns? I dont know their prices at all but they look like they measure well on their site
post #29 of 31
Hmm, can I borrow this thread for a while since it's titled "How many here is into DIY audio?" biggrin.gif

Would it be anyhow possible to build a headphone amp that has something like a DAC in it so you would get optical input to a regular 6,3mm output? The headphones I am (possibly) building something for are the Senn 555's.

Feel free to direct me somewhere else if you feel like doing so redface.gif
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post #30 of 31
Hi mad,

If I recall, the purpose of multiple subs in many locations is to try to overcome room response issues that often lead to lulls in bass response in certain parts of the room. I would argue lots of different drivers in many locations, solves one problem but at the same time, creates it's own problems.

You used the term "smoothing" and I might be inclined to interpret that as "muddying up." It's reaching into the realm of subjectivism, however, I would argue that "smoothing" out bass is not a "good" thing, that sounds to me like a modification of the original intent, or distortion.

Different subs placed all over the room, are all going to have different group delay, and time alignment from the listening position, granted, in the bass region this is not a critical issue because we're talking about wavelengths that are often larger than the room anyways, but I would still argue that a coherent single point source, or stereo pair of equal subs will deliver the most accurate reproduction. I'd suggest using EQ to fix the response issues, not a smattering of different subs all over the place.

I'd pass on IB subs personally. An IB implementation comes across to me more as a band-aid for a weak motor design and weak amplification. If you're going to build a system for the "top end" filled with highly "articulate" drivers (low Qts, powerful motors), I wouldn't want to "fill out" the bottom of that design with a bunch of "sloppy" high Qts drivers. Just seems very unmatched to me... Use some watts on the bottom end, they are cheap. A pro-sound amp makes a great sub amp for home theater type stuff IMO. I personally lean towards large displacement through surface area approach, and like either sealed boxes that are EQed for the room (lots of amplification required) or under-sized vented alignments tuned low, to keep group delay low while gaining some max SPL and efficiency. All depends on the drivers chosen though. I've never heard them before... but having tinkered with simulation a lot, I really like the way the RCF and B&C 21" subs model out. Those would be my choice if I could afford it and had a place to put them. If efficiency in the bottom end is important and you want to keep things a bit more isolated to the listening room (not sacrifice another room as an IB), consider tapped horn designs.

Regarding RCF drivers- they are top notch stuff, B&C and RCF make some of the finest drivers money can buy. I wouldn't hesitate to suggest an RCF compression driver. Selecting drivers for a build, can be done haphazardly, and will result in a very complicated crossover design to integrate them, or time can be taken to research and consider the drivers more carefully, which can result in a simplified crossover design because the drivers are more apt to play nice together with less correction.

Regards,
Eric
     
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