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[ITw] US senator asks FTC to investigate Apple, Google - Page 2

post #11 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by guyladouche View Post

FTC, how about you do something useful, like investigate AT&T and other providers for levying unfair charges for services they're understood to provide, and help to draw down prices for something that's becoming a basic utility for a lot of citizens, as opposed to seeing if an application that the user grants privileges to is accessing their photos.

Except, nobody is granting privileges to access photos wholesale, nor when they aren't actively using the app. That is a problem. That's a software problem that can, and should, be handled though. No app ought to be able to do what they've proven can be done with that camera. Apple and Android phone makers need to come down on that capability like the fist of an angry god.

I can't imagine what an FTC investigator's workload looks like. wth.gif

And Darkpriest, why on earth would that even be a valid argument? Google doesn't get a free pass because .gov does it wrongly.
    
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post #12 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBEG View Post

Except, nobody is granting privileges to access photos wholesale, nor when they aren't actively using the app. That is a problem. That's a software problem that can, and should, be handled though. No app ought to be able to do what they've proven can be done with that camera. Apple and Android phone makers need to come down on that capability like the fist of an angry god.
I can't imagine what an FTC investigator's workload looks like. wth.gif
And Darkpriest, why on earth would that even be a valid argument? Google doesn't get a free pass because .gov does it wrongly.

Jesus Christ do you read? Its not a problem. Its not some app stealing your photos. It gives apps access to it with GPS permissions or with Android just like Photoshop can open up pictures.

It wasn't even considered a problem until NYT decided to say it was one, even though many photo editors on iOS have been using the permission so that a user can edit photos.
post #13 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBEG View Post

Except, nobody is granting privileges to access photos wholesale, nor when they aren't actively using the app. That is a problem. That's a software problem that can, and should, be handled though. No app ought to be able to do what they've proven can be done with that camera. Apple and Android phone makers need to come down on that capability like the fist of an angry god.
I can't imagine what an FTC investigator's workload looks like. wth.gif
And Darkpriest, why on earth would that even be a valid argument? Google doesn't get a free pass because .gov does it wrongly.

My argument was less to do with the FTC investigating the likes of AT&T (for unrelated things), and more to do with the analogy of how an OS is at fault for apps a user intentionally downloads and installs. Yes, there's a "market" or an "app store" or what have you, but these apps do not violate the terms of being posted in the market or app store, and these apps fully disclose the privileges they are asking for before they are installed, and the user must actively agree to them before the app is installed. At least, in every 3rd party android and iOS app I've ever installed requires this set of procedures.

Why not go after the devs making these apps? Oh, that's right, because it would be too cumbersome, so let's just go after the central entity that hosts these apps. Truly, it is nothing of Google's nor Apple's duties to police what privileges the 3rd party apps are requesting, and if there are such egregious violations of privacy, the user can choose not to download and install such apps, much in the way a user can choose not to install malware on their home computers. Maybe more effort ought to be placed in educating people on personal accountability and responsible use as opposed to flaming the OS designers.

"Microsoft, how dare you make an OS that enables me to manually download and install a piece of software that notifies me of its access privileges and hence has access to the files it says it is asking privileges for!" thumb.gif
    
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post #14 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by FtL1776 View Post

Jesus Christ do you read? Its not a problem. Its not some app stealing your photos. It gives apps access to it with GPS permissions or with Android just like Photoshop can open up pictures.
It wasn't even considered a problem until NYT decided to say it was one, even though many photo editors on iOS have been using the permission so that a user can edit photos.

It's been known for a while that Android was not properly enforcing permissions on many apps and that yes, cameras could be and were accessed without the phone user's knowledge or consent. iOS hasn't seen the problem to quite the same degree but one dev sacrificed his license or whatever it's called proving that it could also be done with iPhone apps by creating one to do exactly that. Sit in on a couple security lectures before telling anyone it's 'not a problem'.

The GPS location thing is enough of a headache on its own. Buglaries have jumped sharply since that feature's widespread use (and again when various social apps 'tagged' people's immediate locations).

Quote:
Originally Posted by guyladouche View Post

My argument was less to do with the FTC investigating the likes of AT&T (for unrelated things), and more to do with the analogy of how an OS is at fault for apps a user intentionally downloads and installs. Yes, there's a "market" or an "app store" or what have you, but these apps do not violate the terms of being posted in the market or app store, and these apps fully disclose the privileges they are asking for before they are installed, and the user must actively agree to them before the app is installed. At least, in every 3rd party android and iOS app I've ever installed requires this set of procedures.
Why not go after the devs making these apps? Oh, that's right, because it would be too cumbersome, so let's just go after the central entity that hosts these apps. Truly, it is nothing of Google's nor Apple's duties to police what privileges the 3rd party apps are requesting, and if there are such egregious violations of privacy, the user can choose not to download and install such apps, much in the way a user can choose not to install malware on their home computers. Maybe more effort ought to be placed in educating people on personal accountability and responsible use as opposed to flaming the OS designers.

Apple and Google are responsible for ensuring the standards they set for apps are adhered to. It won't be long before a vicarious liability suit is filed, if they haven't been already. My point was that Apple and Google both need to make their phones so that apps do not have permission to access the cameras or other abusable tools except in more limited, controlled ways. Let the app makers be creative with everything else, but close the book on their ability to abuse tools. Spitballing here, but maybe limit the coding options for accessing those tools/devices while leaving everything else up for creativity. It hurts no one for access to certain tools and devices on the phone to be restricted.

And yes, definitely go after the devs making these apps. Ultimately they are the ones directly at fault for these violations. The fact that the permissions 'required' by some of these apps are not enforced, and that they have more reign than is described in the user agreement, is also a problem. Personal accountability and responsible use go so far. Deception and abuse on the part of the devs making these apps still needs to be addressed.
Edited by BBEG - 3/5/12 at 11:39pm
    
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post #15 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBEG View Post

It's been known for a while that Android was not properly enforcing permissions on many apps and that yes, cameras could be and were accessed without the phone user's knowledge or consent. iOS hasn't seen the problem to quite the same degree but one dev sacrificed his license or whatever it's called proving that it could also be done with iPhone apps by creating one to do exactly that. Sit in on a couple security lectures before telling anyone it's 'not a problem'.
The GPS location thing is enough of a headache on its own. Buglaries have jumped sharply since that feature's widespread use (and again when various social apps 'tagged' people's immediate locations).
Apple and Google are responsible for ensuring the standards they set for apps are adhered to. It won't be long before a vicarious liability suit is filed, if they haven't been already. My point was that Apple and Google both need to make their phones so that apps do not have permission to access the cameras or other abusable tools except in more limited, controlled ways. Let the app makers be creative with everything else, but close the book on their ability to abuse tools. Spitballing here, but maybe limit the coding options for accessing those tools/devices while leaving everything else up for creativity. It hurts no one for access to certain tools and devices on the phone to be restricted.
And yes, definitely go after the devs making these apps. Ultimately they are the ones directly at fault for these violations. The fact that the permissions 'required' by some of these apps are not enforced, and that they have more reign than is described in the user agreement, is also a problem. Personal accountability and responsible use go so far. Deception and abuse on the part of the devs making these apps still needs to be addressed.

Its nothing to do with permissions. Steam can access My Pictures. Doesn't bother me. So can my browser. Doesn't bother me. So why should I be bother any app can look at my pictures, there isn't any problem with a non restrictive file system.

People need to stop posting geotagged photos.
post #16 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by guyladouche View Post

My argument was less to do with the FTC investigating the likes of AT&T (for unrelated things), and more to do with the analogy of how an OS is at fault for apps a user intentionally downloads and installs. Yes, there's a "market" or an "app store" or what have you, but these apps do not violate the terms of being posted in the market or app store, and these apps fully disclose the privileges they are asking for before they are installed, and the user must actively agree to them before the app is installed. At least, in every 3rd party android and iOS app I've ever installed requires this set of procedures.
Why not go after the devs making these apps? Oh, that's right, because it would be too cumbersome, so let's just go after the central entity that hosts these apps. Truly, it is nothing of Google's nor Apple's duties to police what privileges the 3rd party apps are requesting, and if there are such egregious violations of privacy, the user can choose not to download and install such apps, much in the way a user can choose not to install malware on their home computers. Maybe more effort ought to be placed in educating people on personal accountability and responsible use as opposed to flaming the OS designers.
"Microsoft, how dare you make an OS that enables me to manually download and install a piece of software that notifies me of its access privileges and hence has access to the files it says it is asking privileges for!" thumb.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBEG View Post

It's been known for a while that Android was not properly enforcing permissions on many apps and that yes, cameras could be and were accessed without the phone user's knowledge or consent. iOS hasn't seen the problem to quite the same degree but one dev sacrificed his license or whatever it's called proving that it could also be done with iPhone apps by creating one to do exactly that. Sit in on a couple security lectures before telling anyone it's 'not a problem'.
The GPS location thing is enough of a headache on its own. Buglaries have jumped sharply since that feature's widespread use (and again when various social apps 'tagged' people's immediate locations).
Apple and Google are responsible for ensuring the standards they set for apps are adhered to. It won't be long before a vicarious liability suit is filed, if they haven't been already. My point was that Apple and Google both need to make their phones so that apps do not have permission to access the cameras or other abusable tools except in more limited, controlled ways. Let the app makers be creative with everything else, but close the book on their ability to abuse tools. Spitballing here, but maybe limit the coding options for accessing those tools/devices while leaving everything else up for creativity. It hurts no one for access to certain tools and devices on the phone to be restricted.
And yes, definitely go after the devs making these apps. Ultimately they are the ones directly at fault for these violations. The fact that the permissions 'required' by some of these apps are not enforced, and that they have more reign than is described in the user agreement, is also a problem. Personal accountability and responsible use go so far. Deception and abuse on the part of the devs making these apps still needs to be addressed.

Both of you guys have valid points - but is it just me, or does this sound exactly the same as the MegaUpload/TPB/any other torrent site debacle that's going on right now?

If there's one thing I can credit the government for at this point, it's that they're at least staying consistent across the board in how they see things regarding these specific issues (they prefer the method of going after the host(s)).
 
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post #17 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRockMonsi View Post

Both of you guys have valid points - but is it just me, or does this sound exactly the same as the MegaUpload/TPB/any other torrent site debacle that's going on right now?
If there's one thing I can credit the government for at this point, it's that they're at least staying consistent across the board in how they see things regarding these specific issues (they prefer the method of going after the host(s)).

I wouldn't say that makes it effective though...
post #18 of 19
^Neither would I, but that was besides the point. wink.gif
 
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post #19 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRockMonsi View Post

Both of you guys have valid points - but is it just me, or does this sound exactly the same as the MegaUpload/TPB/any other torrent site debacle that's going on right now?

In a phone, you have the capability of limiting what the devs can play with. File sharing sites do not have the ability to limit what is uploaded and stored unless each file is manually checked or can be automatically run against a database of illegal or copyright content, which is pretty well impossible.
    
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