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post #51 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

assuming Firefox still uses MMX and x87. .

That about sums up your posts. More reading, less assuming next time. The Win64 builds have not been in development since 2008. As Mozilla has stated, they don't support or test Win64 builds, unlike their development on the Linux and OSX platform. You can keep going on and making up your own facts but trying to argue with Mozilla devs themselves using anecdotal evidence but that isn't going to get you anywhere. Your, "I haven't seen it therefore it doesn't exist" logic is quite hilarious.
Quote:
You can shout about the bug tracker all you want, but the fact is, that's for the nightly version
lachen.gif So much ignorance...
Edited by PoopaScoopa - 3/21/12 at 7:58am
post #52 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoopaScoopa View Post

That about sums up your posts. More reading, less assuming next time. The Win64 builds have not been in development since 2008. As Mozilla has stated, they don't support or test Win64 builds, unlike their development on the Linux and OSX platform. You can keep going on and making up your own facts but trying to argue with Mozilla devs themselves using anecdotal evidence but that isn't going to get you anywhere. Your, "I haven't seen it therefore it doesn't exist" logic is quite hilarious.
Quote:
You can shout about the bug tracker all you want, but the fact is, that's for the nightly version
lachen.gif So much ignorance...

Disregard the 2008 comment, the results I saw were about compiling it yourself and I misread.

Once again, you're acting like Waterfox is running the exact same code as Firefox Nightly 64bit (ie. The one where those bugs are) when it really isn't, you can ask many members about it. It might be anecdotal evidence, but since Waterfox doesn't have its own bug-tracker you can't really use anything else. And once again, I'm not saying it doesn't exist, sure, it has bugs (Practically every bit of software, apart from the absolutely most simple programs will have bugs somewhere) but you're yet to actually prove your point. You said 64bit Firefox is buggy in general, I've seen proof that the official Nightly has bugs from you. That's it. Obviously, if those bugs are prevalent then someone would have noticed them in Waterfox and Pale Moon if they do use the same code as the respective version of Firefox without any patches and the like.
    
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post #53 of 79
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Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Disregard the 2008 comment, the results I saw were about compiling it yourself and I misread.
Once again, you're acting like Waterfox is running the exact same code as Firefox Nightly 64bit (ie. The one where those bugs are) when it really isn't, you can ask many members about it. It might be anecdotal evidence, but since Waterfox doesn't have its own bug-tracker you can't really use anything else.

What is wrong with you? Mozilla has two main Bugzilla threads for x64 builds. Why would Waterfox need its own? It's the same thing... Besides, Waterfox has done absolutely nothing to Firefox besides use the x64 flag... The 40+ stopping bugs for Win64 are available for everyone to read. They're not specific to the Nightly build. There's a separate Bugzilla thread for the NIghtly version. Bugs have been opened for years, well before FF11 was even in development. Why you seem to think you know better than the Mozilla devs themselves is beyond me. You have zero clue what you're talking about.
Edited by PoopaScoopa - 3/21/12 at 5:44pm
post #54 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoopaScoopa View Post

What is wrong with you? Mozilla has two main Bugzilla threads for x64 builds. Why would Waterfox need its own? It's the same thing... Besides, Waterfox has done absolutely nothing to Firefox besides use the x64 flag... The 40+ stopping bugs for Win64 are available for everyone to read. They're not specific to the Nightly build. There's a separate Bugzilla thread for the NIghtly version. Bugs have been opened for years, well before FF11 was even in development. Why you seem to think you know better than the Mozilla devs themselves is beyond me. You have zero clue what you're talking about.

Except those bugs don't show up at all for users of Waterfox. Obviously, there's some difference. You've showed bugs for the 64bit Nightly build, not for 64bit Pale Moon and Waterfox. Pale Moon, at least, uses the same source code but a different C runtime library. If both ran the exact same code, you'd get the exact same bugs, however you don't. Obviously there's differences. This is simple enough information. You haven't proven me wrong with Pale Moon x64 and Waterfox having bugs, only the 64bit Nightly version for Windows. I've never pretended to know more about Firefox than the Mozilla developers, nor have I said it or tried to give that impression.
    
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post #55 of 79
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Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

How many addons do you have? That doesn't sound right at all...I've got 9 or so addons, and a lot of tabs open and I'm at 750MB.
There hasn't been a real memory issue for a long time. Browsers just need a lot of memory for what they do these days, Chrome and Firefox are usually within 100-200MB of each other (Less than 2.5% of 8GB) and if you read the source, they actually say it themselves: "A lot of work went into this area, and there were improvements resulting in up to 50% less memory usage."
Firefox memory issues are like AMD driver issues, there genuinely were a lot of issues with it a few years back, people disliked it then and for some reason never bothered to check again later.

I have:

Adblock
Advertising Cookie Opt Out
Fox to Phone
Mafiaa redirector (installed it just to add numbers and give a..|.. to the MPAA)

frown.gif

It's at 356mb now with two OCN tabs open and the addon manager. But, no slow downs since the most recent update. So that's good enough for me. I'm not a sickler for conserving RAM. Tis there to be used. Although BF3 eats RAM like it's candy so I usually close a lot of stuff down, including battle log, once the game starts and I see it on the task bar (TMI now...)
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post #56 of 79
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Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Except those bugs don't show up at all for users of Waterfox. Obviously, there's some difference. You've showed bugs for the 64bit Nightly build, not for 64bit Pale Moon and Waterfox. Pale Moon, at least, uses the same source code but a different C runtime library. If both ran the exact same code, you'd get the exact same bugs, however you don't. Obviously there's differences. This is simple enough information. You haven't proven me wrong with Pale Moon x64 and Waterfox having bugs, only the 64bit Nightly version for Windows. I've never pretended to know more about Firefox than the Mozilla developers, nor have I said it or tried to give that impression.

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/showdependencytree.cgi?id=558448&hide_resolved=1 & https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/showdependencytree.cgi?id=471090&hide_resolved=1. are not Nightly only bugs. They are stopping bugs preventing Mozilla from publishing a x64 build for the public. For some reason, you're unable to comprehend that stopping bugs doesn't mean the browser won't work at all with the 64bit flag but that it means it's too unstable for a public release. You are pretending to know more than the Mozilla developers who have stated that the x64 version of Firefox is slower and contains regression bugs. You then try to pretend that the bugs Mozilla devs have filed, don't apply to FF11 when those same bugs have been open before FF11 was even being worked on. The proof is right there from Mozilla itself, yet you are the one who hasn't provided a single shred of evidence to support your ridiculous claims here.

So if you can't be bothered to read and learn, why even waste time trying to inform you?
Edited by PoopaScoopa - 3/21/12 at 8:34pm
post #57 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoopaScoopa View Post

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/showdependencytree.cgi?id=558448&hide_resolved=1 & https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/showdependencytree.cgi?id=471090&hide_resolved=1. are not Nightly only bugs. They are stopping bugs preventing Mozilla from publishing a x64 build for the public. For some reason, you're unable to comprehend that stopping bugs doesn't mean the browser won't work at all with the 64bit flag but that it means it's too unstable for a public release. You are pretending to know more than the Mozilla developers who have stated that the x64 version of Firefox is slower and contains regression bugs. You then try to pretend that the bugs Mozilla devs have filed, don't apply to FF11 when those same bugs have been open before FF11 was even being worked on. The proof is right there from Mozilla itself, yet you are the one who hasn't provided a single shred of evidence to support your ridiculous claims here.
So if you can't be bothered to read and learn, why even waste time trying to inform you?

Did you even read my post or are you just copy pasting the same responses over and over? Waterfox and Pale Moon x64 aren't getting those bugs, ergo, there's changes in something to fix those bugs. Here's evidence I posted before showing the 64bit version of FF being faster in some areas than the 32bit version, fairly recent too at under a year. Want more proof? Sure, here's some benchmarks:
Waterfox Fishbowl:
Link.
Firefox Fishbowl:
Link.

As you can see, Waterfox is significantly faster.

Waterfox Peacekeeper:
Link.
Firefox Peacekeeper:
Link.

Firefox is faster overall.

Sunspider comparison:
8vW4N.png

Firefox is faster overall, but Waterfox ties or beats it on a 13/35 tests.

Kraken comparison:
y3KUT.png

You can gather what you will from that, but Waterfox is obviously faster in the multimedia stuff (Eg. HTML5) due to having SSE2 enabled and maybe due to 64bit, but JS performance is indeed down a fair bit. As it still stands, it proves they're not running the same code. Waterfox would be down across the board otherwise.Q
    
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post #58 of 79
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Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Did you even read my post or are you just copy pasting the same responses over and over? Waterfox and Pale Moon x64 aren't getting those bugs, ergo, there's changes in something to fix those bugs. -snip-

Not trying to jump into the fight here, but you've confused me somewhat. How is it possible that Waterfox and Pale Moon are not getting those bugs?

For example, on the Pale Moon Technical page: http://www.palemoon.org/technical.shtml#Firefox_Differences

They say:
Quote:
First off: the source code used for actual program functions to build Pale Moon is completely unmodified, this means that whatever functionality there is in the Firefox code, will also exist in Pale Moon, with the exception of the parts of Firefox that aren't included in Pale Moon.

Does that not mean that Pale Moon does, in fact, inherit all bugs that x64 FireFox source code?

I would assume the same for Waterfox, but since the site does not have any technical details, I cannot submit proof here, but one can *assume* that it will.

If you view Pale Moon/Waterfox as a compiled x64 build, then you'll understand that it will inherit those bugs, even if you may not have come across it. All they do is set flags when compiling it, like arch=AMD64; -O2; maybe even force SSE2 (which is seems Pale Moon does) which may increase performance, but it doesn't mean it does not inherit bugs.

Just an FYI; I am posting this merely because the site says it uses the unmodified upstream source, thus, there's no use trying to refute it.


EDIT: I read your previous post. Do you know what a C Runtime library is...? Not only that, you said it uses a different one, that is incorrect. If you read it again (and I'll quote it for you:
Quote:
Secondly: The C runtime library used for core functions like memory management has been custom-compiled and optimized for speed. Initially, a stock set of libraries was used for Pale Moon (and for Mozilla Firefox). With the later versions, Mozilla started to make custom compilations of the runtime for memory management ("jemalloc"), and Pale Moon followed suit, and went one step further by extending its CPU optimizations also to this library.

It says it uses the exact same one (jemalloc) and they just went further and added CPU optimizations (no doubt the SSE2 instruction set). That's it. They did not, however, modify the code to "fix" bugs.

Even before the custom jemalloc that FireFox recently started using, all they did was "custom-compile" which means they didn't use an upstream binary release, they compiled the code themselves and added additional flags in order to "optimize".


I see you run Arch Linux, so you may be familiar with Gentoo. A brief explanation of "portage" and USE-flags. I can put in my makefile -O2 and force that optimization system wide. My system is now optimized for speed. Does this mean I "changed" the code? Does this mean I "fixed" bugs?

No, this just means I "custom-compiled" the upstream code and added my own optimization flags according to how "speed" optimized I want to be.

Do you understand now?
Edited by cubanresourceful - 3/22/12 at 6:14am
post #59 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by cubanresourceful View Post

Not trying to jump into the fight here, but you've confused me somewhat. How is it possible that Waterfox and Pale Moon are not getting those bugs?
For example, on the Pale Moon Technical page: http://www.palemoon.org/technical.shtml#Firefox_Differences

Oh, I get that. Except if those bugs are as prevalent as PoopaScoopa is saying you'd think a whole lot more people would actually be getting them, which is my main point..

As for the C Runtime Library, I misread that. Thanks for catching it.
    
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post #60 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Waterfox and Pale Moon x64 aren't getting those bugs, there's changes in something to fix those bugs.
Changes in something. lachen.gif Where do you come up with these ideas?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Oh, I get that. Except if those bugs are as prevalent as PoopaScoopa is saying you'd think a whole lot more people would actually be getting them, which is my main point..
As for the C Runtime Library, I misread that. Thanks for catching it.

lachen.gif . It doesn't mean the browser won't work at all or that it will constantly crash every couple of seconds. It's obviously not stable enough to be supported for an official public release though. Any one who uses the Win64 version, will have these bugs. Pick a bug from the list and follow the steps to reproduce it.
Edited by PoopaScoopa - 3/22/12 at 9:08am
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