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[Bloomberg] Apple to Pay Dividend, Buy Back Stock to Return Some of Its Cash - Page 8  

post #71 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by flamingoyster View Post

No. Not at all. Capitalism functions by the individual determining what is best for himself and corporations determining what is best for corporations. What you describe sounds much more like socialism/communism.
Why the hell is OCN seemingly so socialist? Why do people have so much anger against companies that produce products that the masses enjoy using? I really need to find a tech forum that is more capitalist-oriented. This ignorant bashing of companies is so tiring.

In a capitalist economy, what's best for corporations should be what's best for consumers, which is making a quality product with a reasonable cost. Unfortunately, that is not the case, because people can't think for themselves. It's sad that we, as a society, have gotten to the point where voting with your wallet is near impossible, due to necessity or just sheer laziness, in most cases. Our dependence on technology has almost eliminated our ability to actually boycott to ensure reasonable business practices. That's beside the price fixing and other sleazy corporate tactics. If capitalism was really alive and well, corporate profits would really depend on customer satisfaction and innovation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ESP View Post

Are you kidding me? Just because corporations don't want you to think for yourselves does not mean that it's OK to shrug your individual responsibility of being conscientious in your purchasing decisions. You are spouting some ridiculous nonsense. Socialism/communism, OCN is Socialist? What the hell are you talking about? I'm afraid you've been brainwashed.

I'm going to have to agree with ESP here, but to an extent. Like I said, our complacency has put us in this dependent position.
    
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post #72 of 115
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Originally Posted by scyy View Post

Last I checked leverage was the amount you had put out over your assets. Many of these banks and firms were leveraged upwards of around 70/1 I think it was in Fannie Mae's case. It might just be me but putting out far more money than you are taking in and only staying afloat with cheap money and bailouts sure seems to fit into the definition of a ponzi scheme to me. Does the fact that they have nice words like leverage really change the concept? Even if you don't agree that it was a ponzi scheme you can't deny that it was terrible business and they deserve some scrutiny.

A Ponzi scheme is where a entity takes money from investors and uses this to pay off existing investors with claims of growth.

CDS leverage was betting on a bet on a bet on a bet... The bailout occurred after the CDS collapsed so has nothing to do with the CDS themselves. When all was fine and dandy, you collected your payments. If something default though, you had to pay off all those CDS bets/insurance claims.

Leverage is not a bad concept as it is just a force multiplier. The issue was that companies were overleveraged.... betting more than what they could pay. To make matters worse was that these CDS were highly rated and priced when no one really knew how to classify or calculate risk/value.
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post #73 of 115
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Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

That value of the cash is at market rate though.... investors believe they can do better than that.

But investors are the market for shares. The market valuation of a company is all the assets it owns and its future growth potential. I don't see how buying back shares and having less to invest allows that growth potential to increase.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Instead of sitting in Apple's accounts earning x percentage, investors rather have Apple give them the money to invest themselves.
Also, buybacks should confidence of future performance.

In this case a buyback isn't really a credible signal. They are doing it out of lack of alternatives (ie. they have no other investment strategies to offer a rate of return above the hurdle rate), and that isn't a good sign in my books. Companies should only ever offer dividends to shareholders when the shareholders have a better way of investing the money to obtain a higher rate of return that it would generate inside the company.
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post #74 of 115
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Originally Posted by b.walker36 View Post

For this "what has apple done for humanity" need to only look at how the Ipad has helped disabled children learn and express feelings. They devolped things for autistic children to express their feelings by colors in an easy to use way. Any apple product is way better and more accessible to a person with disabilities than any windows or other product i have ever used. And my family deals with them a lot. Apple does a lot but its about UI and delivery not necesarily hardware and tech. They concentrate more on their design and delivery than anything. There is no down that osx is extremely well designed and if it had the same gaming support as windows i would probably switch, barring i could build a comp.

Newsflash: the vast majority of disabled people are also poor, and will never be able to afford an iPad.
    
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post #75 of 115
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Originally Posted by aroc91 View Post

In a capitalist economy, what's best for corporations should be what's best for consumers, which is making a quality product with a reasonable cost. Unfortunately, that is not the case, because people can't think for themselves. It's sad that we, as a society, have gotten to the point where voting with your wallet is near impossible, due to necessity or just sheer laziness, in most cases. Our dependence on technology and laziness has almost eliminated our ability to actually boycott to ensure reasonable business practices. That's beside the price fixing and other sleazy corporate tactics.
I'm going to have to agree with ESP here.

Read the post of mine directly above yours. It's sad that responsibility to oneself no longer seems to imply acting in a way that ensures one's own happiness in the long term (and long term rarely involves caring only for oneself in the short term).
Quote:
If capitalism was really alive and well, corporate profits would really depend on customer satisfaction and innovation.

In all sectors other than the financial sector, corporate profits still depend on customer satisfaction. The only reason they don't in the financial sector is because our government currently allows lobbyists to affect public policy. Additionally, financial policy tends to be set by people who were previously big wigs in the private financial sector. You see the problem? But no, companies like Apple are dictated purely by what the public wants, which is why Apple & Co. still release products that, by and large, are adored by the masses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ESP View Post

Newsflash: the vast majority of disabled people are also poor, and will never be able to afford an iPad.

Newsflash: the vast majority of disabled people have cars, which are hundreds of times more expensive than an iPad. Almost everyone can afford to spend $400 or so on a luxury item now and then, which is why the iPad has been so lucrative for Apple. You're speaking out of your rear-end yet again.
Edited by flamingoyster - 3/19/12 at 12:52pm
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post #76 of 115
I hate Apple. Although the world is clearly against me with sales figures like that!!
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post #77 of 115
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Originally Posted by flamingoyster View Post

No, you just are too closed-minded to understand what I am saying. In considering only oneself, one needs to consider everything that will affect oneself. If others are dependent on you, that is obviously part of the equation. So, if I were married and could only afford one computer between myself and my wife, I would choose a computer that I know we would both be happy using (which maybe would be Apple, maybe would be Microsoft, but you see where I am going with this). It is similar for companies: in attempting to maximize profits, companies consider the probability that consumers will enjoy their products. Etc., etc. Choosing to be responsible in one's purchases only to oneself implies (and should be inferred by anyone who isn't a fool) that anything that affect's one's own happiness needs to be considered. The point is that I am not going to ask myself, "how will society benefit from my current purchase?" because society, in most cases, will not play a part in this decision. In some cases, such as in choosing to buy a green-emissions car, society does play a role, because one's own choose will have a greater impact than on himself and those nearest to him. The important thing to note is that this decision is still being made purely on one's responsibility to oneself (i.e., I would have a responsibility to myself to care for the health of the planet, because it will affect me in the future).
This is how capitalism works. You don't seem to understand it at all. Don't worry, you'll understand in a few years as maturity takes effect.

All you did was prove my point, that you can't just consider yourself in your purchasing decisions because they effect many different things (and people) that you are affected by... Yet you still insult me? Talk about maturity level.

You might call not concern for others concern for yourself, but it is. Just because you only care about how things will directly influence you in easily foreseeable ways does not mean that it's a good thing to do.
    
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post #78 of 115
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Originally Posted by ESP View Post

Newsflash: the vast majority of disabled people are also poor, and will never be able to afford an iPad.

So none of them have families. What a simple minded thing to say. perhaps the person had wealth and got into an accident. An autistic child can't be born to a millionare. There are these things called schools where they teach disabled children. A lot of them go to the same schools you and I did. My parents have an IMac and they not rich by any means and my brother is able to actually use to play his videos because it talks to him in a manner that is easy to set up. I can read him the names of programs. I watched a woman operate her Iphone that was completely blind becuase it told her the name of every app she clicked on and would read her her contacts.
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post #79 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

A Ponzi scheme is where a entity takes money from investors and uses this to pay off existing investors with claims of growth.
CDS leverage was betting on a bet on a bet on a bet... The bailout occurred after the CDS collapsed so has nothing to do with the CDS themselves. When all was fine and dandy, you collected your payments. If something default though, you had to pay off all those CDS bets/insurance claims.
Leverage is not a bad concept as it is just a force multiplier. The issue was that companies were overleveraged.... betting more than what they could pay. To make matters worse was that these CDS were highly rated and priced when no one really knew how to classify or calculate risk/value.

I completely understand that leverage is not a bad concept, I'm saying that the negative is how highly they were leveraged that even small market fluctuations could make them insolvent. That was my entire point that banks became so over leveraged that they had no possible way to pay back everything when the market went down. I realize there are differences between a true ponzi scheme like Madoff's and what occurred in the banking sector but the overall concept is very similar in my view at least. Ponzi schemes can seem fine and dandy too till enough people want their money, look how long Madoff had his going for. Lastly the bailout absolutely had to with the CDS's themselves. If CDS's never existed there is a very good chance these banks and firms would never have gotten leveraged to the point that they were so the banks would have had a far lower chance of becoming insolvent when the market went down.
Edited by scyy - 3/19/12 at 1:03pm
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post #80 of 115
Well, looks like it's time for this thread to get a clean up.
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