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Arch Linux Grub (Legacy?) Installation and'Foldix' Display Issues - Page 3  

post #21 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

1. boot menu updates can break previously working installs depending on how the updates are being pushed. Some are loaded entirely into the MBR. Some are loaded on the partition table. Some are loaded on the disk itself with only a chainloader installed on the MBR. If you've got an install that's entirely in MBR and then move to a file system based one, the latter might assume that the MBR is already correct and thus not update that and then you end up with a mismatched install. I'm not saying that would happen in this instance (nor in most case studies), but what you're recommending is a nasty work around so I'm just saying you should be careful when mix and matching boot menus - which is all I was expressing previously.
It's one thing to say "yeah it can be done in theory" however it's an entirely different thing to support users doing a nasty kludge that could potentially break and thus prevent them from booting their OS. A much saner solution is to address the issues with Arch's install of GRUB.
2. you're still missing the point of what I'm saying. Plus your own post is missing the point of your original comment as you recommended creating an Archline boot menu in Ubuntu. So Archlinux wouldn't have Ubuntu's config files. So the whole point of the cfg files still being around is moot.
3. Ahh excellent. I'll have a read of this later. Thank you smile.gif

1) Grub itself is just a snippit of code. All the MBR stuff just reads the config files in /boot, or more specific /boot/grub... So there are no real "updates", you re-install grub each update and scripts re-build the config files. Grub doesn't care what system it's on, what it's booting from, all it cares about is if it knows the location of the kernel and the initramfs for the kernel. if it can find both of those, it can pass the booting procedure on. I've booted Arch linux using grub on a different disk, with a different kernel than Arch (booted arch linux with a debian kernel, same kernel version however). OMG NO WAY....

2) Archlinux will have it's own configuration files. As I said, the part of grub that boots is on the MBR. The rest is read from configuration files, which will be there. Or if you read my post, I like to mount /boot from my target drive to /boot on the LiveCD. That way, just in case files are updated by grub install scripts they get put on the target /boot.... You don't have to mount and should be able to use install grub through CLI but i didn't want to bother looking up the switches (you WILL have to mount the target drive no matter what).

For the record, there is no configuration files per distro with grub. Grub uses the same files across every distro, the only thing that changes is the grub.cfg for the menu. The format for that is still the same, and the worst scenario I've ever come up with is having to change hdd(X,X) to tell grub where to look for the kernels and to boot the proper disc. That's only because when you boot from a LiveCD it pushes the /dev/sdX drives over forcing the liveCD to be /dev/sda, which changes the grub script output making hdd(x,x) off by one.

I know grub, I know how grub2 works, I've been using it since it was distributed because the EXT4 beta required it. Don't tell me how grub works, because I've been messing with it direly for ages.

[edit] If you want to get REAL into it, grub has to boot purely off the MBR. Grub2 has to boot off GPT/MBR. Why? Because the bios can't mount a file system, it just reads the first part of the disc for bootable code. Once grub boots, it then searches /boot on the disc it booted from (unless you configured it to look on a separate disc, then it looks in /boot of that disc). Once it finds the right configuration files, it reads them, which is why grub.cfg is so important. it then takes that and uses those arguments to read the kernel image and boot from that. The initramfs is really important here as it handles everything else. Unless you don't make one, then your kernel boots directly from grub.

[edit2]

Also, to further push my point I'll explain to most 2 common errors and why they happen. Grub error 17 is when /boot, or the files within, cannot be loaded. Grub 15 is when grub.cfg is improperly written, so it loads the menu but then when trying to boot X kernel it fails with grub15.

I also don't know why you say it modifies partition stuff. you either install it to MBR or a partition, not to both (generally, if you do one becomes obsolete). There is nothing loaded outside of the MBR, with the exception of you installing it to a partition to preserve another boot loader. And while I said the bios reads the first snippet of code, it really just reads the MBR. It has been that case for years, since the bios has never had FS support (UEFI?).

And as for how grub reads file systems, it probably loads modular code from /boot and that might also be related to error17. Those FS modules (for lack of better term) won't ever change. Because the FS itself never changes, so once they get perfect read support they don't ever change them. And no, a FS never changes. The reading/writing abilities inside the OS might change, but the physical layout of the FS never changes. If it does, you get a new FS (EXT4.1?). That's been like that since the dawn of computing.

[final edit]
http://javalinuxok.blogspot.com/2011/10/how-does-grub-work.html
I know you want your new problem fixed, I'll get to that in a bit (gtg donate). This is more annoying crap for plan9 to take in. So /boot is important, but all the MBR/Grub does is locate/read /boot for a specific file for it to pass on to stage2. I doubt the stage calls change much, just as the bios always looks in the first section for boot code. There is a very slight change that grub upates /boot drastically enough so that the file's data changed too much for the MBR part to recognize. But that gets covered by me mounting /boot....

If you are going to really keep arguing with me read up exactly how the boot sequence goes, what files are called, and how it works overall. grub legacy has stage 1.5, as of grub2 it should all be stage2.
Edited by mushroomboy - 3/22/12 at 9:51am
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post #22 of 77
Thread Starter 

Ok, ok can we talk about something other than GRUB now that I have it handled? Please. My issue now is this god forsaken display flickering and blanking problem

     
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post #23 of 77
@mushroomboy: You're a nut job laugher.gif

I've basically just read the 1st paragraph then realised that once again you've completely ignored every single point I've made.

I know you're keen to demonstrate your new found skills but you really are wasting your energies here as I am fully aware of what GRUB is and how it works. It's kind of important I know this given I have to make significant edits to it on every server I manage (not least of all configuring it to push console access down a coms port for remote administration when physical access would normally be a necessity). So I don't need to read a page of you lecturing me how to do my own bloody job thank you very much rolleyes.gif

Every single thread you go in you completely ignore everything that everyone says and then bleat on about your own expertise (which, when reading the other threads, seem a great deal less experience than the guys you're dismissing). In nearly every thread you've epically missed the point which the other guys were trying to explain. In fact you did this in the Gentoo thread this very same week: while asking for help you some how ended up on a superiority trip despite being proven completely wrong. There's elements of that here too, but in truth I'm struggling to work out what points you're trying to make now as you keep flip-flopping your argument whenever a previous one collapses. But most annoyingly of all you keep making references to arguments I've never even made!

I really can't be bothered to play this game with you any longer as -unlike you it seems- I have nothing to prove. People can take or leave my comments - at the end of the day I don't get paid to offer support here like I get paid to manage Solaris and SLES at work. So it makes no difference to me what you think.

[edit]
I have now read your entire post and you have completely ignored the point I raised. Amusingly you've also reiterated some of the information I mentioned earlier in this discussion - except somehow this time it's correct when previously I was "wrong". laugher.gif

@phazer11: Sorry about how this thread has turned out. I really didn't expect all this nonsense from a single cautionary suggestion.

As for your fault, from that brief summary I'd suggest looking at graphics drivers first. Are you running open source or proprietary? Also have you got any more details about the fault?
Edited by Plan9 - 3/22/12 at 3:52pm
post #24 of 77
are you sure both ends of the cable are well connected

check your refresh rate and resolution settings. Nvidia card, use nvidia-settings. ati card, get an nvidia card.

does it do it in just the console or X11 or both?
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post #25 of 77
Thread Starter 

I've already looked at the drivers and can't get nvidia-settings to configure properly I suppose maybe I need the commands?  Either way I thought I'd fixed it if you look at http://www.overclock.net/t/1156650/foldix-an-smp-and-nvidia-gpu3-folding-linux-distro-released/110#post_16780966

     
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post #26 of 77
Any specific error with nvidia-settings?

Have you run it as root? ( it makes it's own xorg.conf so it'll need root access )
post #27 of 77
Thread Starter 

I can't look at it right now (trying to get  but it kept saying something about monitor not set or similar and the --help wasn't helpful. Yup ran it ran it as root and made a xorg file (it won't open Xserver...).

 

     
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post #28 of 77
Download the drivers from the nvidia site officially then drop into CLI, ctrl+alt+F# (F#s 1-6 drop into CLI login)... Login and run:

sudo service kdm stop

I'm not exactly sure on stopping a service in arch, you might also just do:

sudo /etc/init.d/kdm stop

Replace with xdm or whatever you use.

After that run the drivers, you should CD into the directory:

cd ~/Downloads (assuming)

chmod 755 NVIDIA-blah blah

sudo ./NVIDIA-blah blah

If it completes that's sweet, start kdm by one of the earlier commands but just do start instead of stop.

You should be in X, if it didn't work come back here and tell us what it says (nvidia installer error).

[edit2- OP] I'm telling you how I install it and to do all this because if nvidia-settings won't work right there is a high chance that it isn't isn't installed correctly. I hate going through the AUR/package managers as much as possible with drivers. Mainly because I've never had failure with the Nvidia blobs. The only other solution I can think of is use the AUR and go with the nvidia-all package and see if that one works. But honestly, run the blobs if you ever encounter difficulty. I've found they tend to work much better/smoother than trying to figure out why your drivers won't work from other sources.

Plan9: The whole point was that you said my method won't work. It will work, and it will indefinitely work. Your just being a dick because I basically told you that your explanation of how grub would error is impossible. I covered every aspect of what could go wrong and yet you still say I'm wrong and that things will break. It's pretty dang annoying when people do that, especially when you are in the right. I listen to some people, in fact there are a few on here that I really enjoy talking to. You aren't one of them because you do exactly what a few of the others do. Since your such a "vet" (like some of us others aren't) you come in and give advice across the board. Then when we try and say your wrong you say something like "a partial grub update would break things" (recent example). The truth there is only the install script, so grub never gets updated it always gets fresh installed. And yet here I am, the supposed ******* becase I'm right in saying you can install in the LiveCD with my method and it'll work fine. The next update should put it all back to the Arch system anyways, but still I'm the wrong *******. Thanks.

[edit] Oh and this isn't new found talent. I've been using linux for 8+ years, various distro's as well as I enjoy building from source as much as possible. I've done slackware and other stuff years ago, most of that base crap is forgotten or foggy so it's one of the reasons why I went back to this. Honestly it's not even remotely as hard as I remembered. I'm not a newb and I know how quite a few things work internally, so my advice isn't always ****ty crap advice that's just a simple fix. You shouldn't treat me as if I'm a linux user who only partly gets the concept. That's why I don't like you and some of the other people here, you treat everyone as if they are below you and it's pretty ****in annoying.
Edited by mushroomboy - 3/23/12 at 9:34am
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post #29 of 77
Thread Starter 

I don't even have a desktop manager it's only terminal so I should just change directory to my download location then follow? I'll do whatever you say it's been over a year since I've used linux and that was an Arch Install on my old PC. Before that I'd only had 3 maybe 4 years of linux use under my belt so it seems like I'll have tor relearn a fair amount.

 

Do you know a command I can use to download it from their server? I can't browse for it.

 

 


Edited by phazer11 - 3/23/12 at 10:12am
     
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post #30 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

Plan9: The whole point was that you said my method won't work.
Actually no i didn't. I just said I wouldn't recommend it as it has the potential to go completely wrong. However that was before you said you used that method yourself.

The rest of this argument was just pointless as it's us arguing the same points while trying to disprove the others points

Anyway, can we just live and let live now please? Linux really isn't work the constant arguments and ultimately we both just want the same thing (friendly banter and to offer assistance when people need it).
Edited by Plan9 - 3/24/12 at 3:03am
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