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[Engadget] High-res Mountain Lion art could point to Retina Macs in 2012 - Page 7

post #61 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenTiger View Post

No color dimming on the sides/top/bottom of screen with color changing as your head moves slightly while sitting, uniform and better colors giving the image more depth, and uniform brightness + viewing angle quality, = win. S-IPS screens rock for desktops. Oh, and capable of twice the resolution.
GT640 is Kepler. smile.gif

IPS screen color is not necessarily better though. Some have lower color gamut as I noted before. Yet there is the angle advantage for IPS, but that matters more or less depending on how you normally use your screen.

More resolution is nice, but mobile gpus can't support it in games anyway. And tn displays have higher refresh rates.
post #62 of 110
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Ugh, people need to stop stealing my avatar.
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post #63 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post

13 inch MacBook Pro: 1440x900 (16:10) > 2880x1800 (255 PPI)
(Current resolution is 1280x720, I expect it to change to 1400x900 though.)

it's 1280x800.
post #64 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussianGrimmReaper View Post


Apple isn't doing this because it makes difference to the user. They're doing it for PR. They have the money to burn.

Actually, it is more because they found that their tablets have little to nothing over their competition as most 'people can rarely tell the difference in performance'. They found that marketing a high resolution, or DPI screen, was enough to have people favour the iPhone over the competition. They are only using it for marketing purposes. If you have seen the screen, it is rather nice that the text quality and resolution for news applications or web viewing, but it is, as predicted, extremely demanding on battery use, the IPS quality is rather lacking and mimics the quality of lower end TFT LCD screens, and the device is still rather heavy for one hand use. My friend complains that he drains the battery life while gaming on his new iPad while it is charging.

It is all marketing.
Edited by Domino - 3/24/12 at 10:21am
post #65 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post

Actually, it is more because they found that their tablets have little to nothing over their competition as most 'people can rarely tell the difference in performance'. They found that marketing a high resolution, or DPI screen, was enough to have people favour the iPhone over the competition. They are only using it for marketing purposes. If you have seen the screen, it is rather nice that the text quality and resolution for news applications or web viewing, but it is, as predicted, extremely demanding on battery use, the IPS quality is rather lacking and mimics the quality of lower end TFT LCD screens, and the device is still rather heavy for one hand use. My friend complains that he drains the battery life while gaming on his new iPad while it is charging.
It is all marketing.

And you know what, if their marketing stunts continue to push resolutions across the board, echoing into other companies...I'm all for it.

Now if they'd only push harder for desktop and server processors to get faster. Their last ten years has really stomped on the computational progression of our species as they shifted consumer technology budgets away from powerful computation strength and towards handheld toys.

Ideally, in the next years, we move away from the idea that your mobile devices actually RUN the software themselves and towards the idea that they are simply a portable VNC window connected to actually useful machines and capable of sustaining 60fps and near=instantaneous commands.

If an iPad could smoothly link up to my desktop with drivers to allow my finger inputs to play nicely with the PC and be mappable etc (essentially identical to how a Wacom tablet functions) then I'd buy one. Apple has the clout as well to control the mobile providers here in North America and basically say "you will offer data at this rate or we simply will not allow you to sell iPads". That way the bandwidth needed to stay connected to your desktop is manageable as well.

Once we get to that stage, batteries will last longer as well since all your device does is display a video feed. It doesn't require nearly as much computational power as running a real application.
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post #66 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

Why would you need it though? As I said, monitors typically sit 2-4 times further away than tablets/phones, so a 370 DPI computer screen would be like a 740-1480 DPI tablet, which is absolutely unnecessary. I'm typing this from a 1920x1200 17" monitor in which I can barely see individual pixels (with better than 20/20 vision). I'm normally arguing for a higher DPI in the threads where people don't understand why it's necessary on tablets or phones. It's actually somewhat ironic, people were complaining that tablets were getting a higher DPI before monitors, when the monitors didn't need it and the tablets did. As I said before, DPI in itself means nothing, the arc-length of each pixel in your view it what matters (arc-length being the amount of your eye's field-of-view that the pixel takes up). If we're talking about arc-length, most 1080p monitors 24" and less have a similar pixel arc-length to that of a "retina" display tablet/phone, so saying you want a higher DPI monitor is equivalent to saying the new iPad still needs a higher DPI.

The idea is to have a monitor that produces more detail than you can see.

Open a paint program, draw a straight line, almost flat, form left to right. See the jaggies.

I can stand 9' away from my laptop (15" 1366x768) and still see jaggies (just barely).

That is a "worst case scenario" as far as making jaggies visible, however, if there is any way to produce a noticeable jagged edge, that means your screen is not giving you more detail than can be seen.
So, technically, if you have a line that is one pixel higher on one side of the screen than the other, and you can pick out approximately where the change happens, you need higher DPI.
post #67 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveHighDPI View Post

The idea is to have a monitor that produces more detail than you can see.
Open a paint program, draw a straight line, almost flat, form left to right. See the jaggies.
I can stand 9' away from my laptop (15" 1366x768) and still see jaggies (just barely).
That is a "worst case scenario" as far as making jaggies visible, however, if there is any way to produce a noticeable jagged edge, that means your screen is not giving you more detail than can be seen.
So, technically, if you have a line that is one pixel higher on one side of the screen than the other, and you can pick out approximately where the change happens, you need higher DPI.

Exactly. Human eye visual acuity is much higher than most people think. You are probably correct that you could see jaggies from 9' on that screen...in fact, it's a damn good test for anyone to try.

Do as DPI suggested everyone.

1) Open MS Paint.
2) Draw a horizontal line that is SLIGHTLY not perfectly horizontal.
3) Begin walking away from your monitor slowly until you've reached a distance where you can no longer tell if the pixels are stepping or not.

You now know what resolution your monitor would have to be to achieve "non-pixels" at all times.

I sit around 2' back from my screens and on a quick test using that exact same method, I need to step back to around 10-11' to REALLY make that line appear smooth. 8' the pixels start to blend, but it still looks lumpy. By 10' or so though like I said, it's more or less appearing as a smooth line to me.

So it's math time:

I needed to effectively shrink the pixel density of my screen by a factor of 5 (2' to 10') in order to reduce the appearance of the pixels such that a jagged line looked straight. That means in order for my screen to look that good from 2', it needs 5x more length and width...or 25x more resolution. The screen is 1920 x 1200, so basically my monitor would have to be 9,600 x 6,000 in order to appear completely flawless when tasked with displaying a black and white, aliased line.

In reality, we never really view black on white, aliased shapes. We view much lower contrast images where even if the lines were aliased, they are only blending between pixels with a 5-10% value difference.

When you consider that print media is regarded to be more or less perfect for viewing at standard distances when printed @ 300dpi, you can more or less figure that a computer screen only really NEEDS to be 300dpi as well.

A 24" monitor is roughly 20.33" x 12.7", which means the resolution is 6100 x 3810 in order to achieve 300dpi.
Edited by kweechy - 3/24/12 at 6:43pm
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post #68 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by kweechy View Post

Exactly. Human eye visual acuity is much higher than most people think. You are probably correct that you could see jaggies from 9' on that screen...in fact, it's a damn good test for anyone to try.
Do as DPI suggested everyone.
1) Open MS Paint.
2) Draw a horizontal line that is SLIGHTLY not perfectly horizontal.
3) Begin walking away from your monitor slowly until you've reached a distance where you can no longer tell if the pixels are stepping or not.
You now know what resolution your monitor would have to be to achieve "non-pixels" at all times.
I sit around 2' back from my screens and on a quick test using that exact same method, I need to step back to around 10-11' to REALLY make that line appear smooth. 8' the pixels start to blend, but it still looks lumpy. By 10' or so though like I said, it's more or less appearing as a smooth line to me.
So it's math time:
I needed to effectively shrink the pixel density of my screen by a factor of 5 (2' to 10') in order to reduce the appearance of the pixels such that a jagged line looked straight. That means in order for my screen to look that good from 2', it needs 5x more length and width...or 25x more resolution. The screen is 1920 x 1200, so basically my monitor would have to be 9,600 x 6,000 in order to appear completely flawless when tasked with displaying a black and white, aliased line.
In reality, we never really view black on white, aliased shapes. We view much lower contrast images where even if the lines were aliased, they are only blending between pixels with a 5-10% value difference.
When you consider that print media is regarded to be more or less perfect for viewing at standard distances when printed @ 300dpi, you can more or less figure that a computer screen only really NEEDS to be 300dpi as well.
A 24" monitor is roughly 20.33" x 12.7", which means the resolution is 6100 x 3810 in order to achieve 300dpi.

I'd rather have anti-aliasing take care of the jaggies then try and get good performance in a game with 4 times as many pixels. I'm all for high DPI if it makes a noticeable improvement (in more than just highly aliased MS paint images), but not at the expense where it would kill my game performance. Someday when the sacrifice is very small for that kind of resolution I'll be all for it.
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post #69 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylit View Post

it's 1280x800.
Ah right, thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

I'd rather have anti-aliasing take care of the jaggies then try and get good performance in a game with 4 times as many pixels. I'm all for high DPI if it makes a noticeable improvement (in more than just highly aliased MS paint images), but not at the expense where it would kill my game performance. Someday when the sacrifice is very small for that kind of resolution I'll be all for it.
The best kind of AA is SSAA though, it's incredibly demanding but it's the best. The quality should be even higher, as with a double resolution monitor, you'll be able to actually display all those pixels rather than just downscaling it and spreading it across a lower resolution. And in that case, you can even throw in some MSAA as well for an even smoother picture. The higher resolution should give much more detail to games.

I'm kind of hoping Apple comes out with an iMac with a retina display this year. It's only a couple of months away though, so it may be too soon.

Yes, such resolutions will kill performance in games, but that's only going to put more pressure on NVidia and AMD to make better GPUs.
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post #70 of 110
Again, what is the use of having such a high res on such a screen that is so far away? And small? Make a desktop display with that res, then start talking.
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