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[APC]Nvidia claims that there's no money in 22nm - Page 5

post #41 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madvillan View Post

*9850 wink.gif

*9950. By current naming schemes the x950 and x970 are the high-end single-GPU cards tongue.gif. This happened as of the 6k series with AMD. I wouldn't normally even bother pointing this out but you took it upon yourself to "correct" the other guy for no real reason, and not even with accurate info redface.gif .
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post #42 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

And you arrive at exactly my point. Games on PC are not made for PC. They are made for consoles, with PC as an afterthought, and as such will always be inefficient.
It's not that we need more hardware - if anything, its our overabundance of hardware resources compared to what is available on consoles which allows these inefficient games to still run half-decent on PC and therefore sell for a profit.

I've seen some actual ports that were inefficient, like GTA4, but generally PC versions tend to run pretty well. PC versions of games are often running at 4 times the resolution and 2-4 times the framerate. The problems I've seen with multiplatform games tend to be design issues where controls, UI, or options aren't really made with PC games in mind. This really has little to do with the code.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

As for the ability to code efficiently, its far from impossible. While it may be hard to code for all possible variations of hardware today using DirectX, OpenGL, and other standardizations, it is almost effortless compared to coding straight to hardware for the same number of hardware variations.

Compared to coding straight to hardware, sure, but as a whole it's far from effortless. It's the single largest hurdle in PC game development IMO, we (the programmers) spent at least 50-75% on the last project I was on trying to get things to run smoothly for the full set of hardware we were going to support. Had it been a console game that would been about 15-25% at the most.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

We may never get games for PC that are as efficient as they are on consoles (even without accounting for cost of development vs market size) specifically because we cannot code to hardware on PC, but there is no reason that a game that runs flawlessly on $500 of 6 year old hardware should also run like crap on $2000 of modern hardware.

I have yet to play a game that runs better on older hardware on the day it is released. Can you provide an example?
EDIT: Unless you're talking about running better on a console than on a PC, in which case I should point out the PC probably isn't running at 720p and 30fps.
Edited by lordikon - 3/27/12 at 11:34am
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post #43 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

Coding straight to hardware will give you more efficient games, it would also mean that games would probably only be made to work with a few video cards, sound cards, etc. Coding straight to hardware is just not feasible on PCs any longer, it's bad enough as it is even with DirectX and OpenGL, having to account for a huge range of hardware, and different OSes. I'll agree many multiplatform games aren't as optimized on the PC, and that's often because they don't need to be to run as they were designed. They were designed to look like a console game. And that is the heart of the problem that the majority of OCN hates. Publishers are following the money, and there isn't as much money for multiplatform games in PC as there is in consoles. The amount of effort put into the PC version of a game is directly proportional to the percentage of a companies consumer base is made up by PC gamers. Small percentage of their consumers, small amount of their effort.

This is why I hope that consoles will become standardized with PC hardware. Especially x86 CPU's. I'm not a dev but I can understand that the fragmentation with current consoles can leave developers worn and time stricken when it comes to development on the PC.

The gap will once again widen, but at least developers wouldn't be trying to juggle 3 or 4 different architectures.
In your opinion, wouldn't standardized hardware in consoles lessen the load on developers and somewhat automatically optimize games for the PC?

I could see how it would be quite hard for any company to justify R&D to increase performance when a PC from 7 years ago can open email, stream 1080p movies without a dropping a frame, allow them to use Facebook because that really is the meat of market. And when games are being developed for 6 year old hardware.
post #44 of 81
I think the people whining about developers not being efficient/good have never coded a day in their lives and understand pretty much nothing about game development. Go write a basic side-scroller or even a simple deathmatch 3D game then come back and tell me that the stuff that developers make these days is "crap".

Games are HUGE pieces of software that take years to make. The level of engineering effort required is insane. Back in the DOOM days, the code bases were nowhere near as large and complex as they are now, so more effort could go into the low level details for speed's sake.
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post #45 of 81
sadly game maker when the short route they stuck with older hardware software and have been adapting it for todays hardware techno!you can clearly see this isnt working!ms themselves say evolve!they would yell stop using ie6 if they wouldnt be laughed at!check 64 bit its been what almost 8 years since lunch !and very limited hard core fiew can brag about this,same for dx11,remote differential compression,donnybrook,etc etc etc

and since ms cannot force game dev to use newer software (aside from not supporting w7 and previous!wow that actually would be a good idea)i dont think we ll get new software techno adopted anytime soon .even if it is awsome!
post #46 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by StormX2 View Post

whatevs man, i just think there is room for improvement on the development of the games, and that companies are probobly shortcutting this aspect to rush a game out.
Id rather a better game tomorrow then a game today that they will patch for the next 15 years six months and then abandoned in a still unfinished state

Edited by Zero4549 - 3/27/12 at 11:46am
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post #47 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeassa View Post

I think the people whining about developers not being efficient/good have never coded a day in their lives and understand pretty much nothing about game development. Go write a basic side-scroller or even a simple deathmatch 3D game then come back and tell me that the stuff that developers make these days is "crap".

come on that excuse is old !corporation keep ignoring microsoft advice lol!they are all like that!it isnt random luck ms has to put free lesson on how to code 101 on channel 9 be it for wp or c++ etc etc .ms is tired of correcting copy and paste coder who dont ask ms anything and after the fact are like ,oh i didnt know(i ll hide the fact from ea they wont notice)when ea do notice they ask help from ms ,ms is like cant help you now!you are too comited!should have come at dev we would have steered you in the right direction!if intel and amd and nvidia are going to ms when they need coding help ,dont you think it is a bit cocky from game dev
to think they can outsmart ms!come on lol!
post #48 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrbroad77 View Post

Don't go to 22nm then! I'd love to see Nvidia 28nm cards try to compete with AMD 9000 series in 2014.

id love to see amd 9000 vs nvidia 10k series in late 2020..

moot arguement is moot.
     
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post #49 of 81
I have a feeling 28nm is going to get milked.
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post #50 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

I have yet to play a game that runs better on older hardware on the day it is released. Can you provide an example?
EDIT: Unless you're talking about running better on a console than on a PC, in which case I should point out the PC probably isn't running at 720p and 30fps.

Halo (original) for PC is a good example. My Pentium 4, 2GB DDR, x850pro maxes it no prob at it's monitor's maximum resolution (I cant recall off the top of my head. It's by no means high but it wasn't too bad for it's time either). On my sig rig? 5fps with everything set as low as it can possibly go. 400x300 resolution. Same poor performance on my core 2 duo with x1950 / 9800gx2 / gtx280 / gtx 560ti


But no, you are correct in assuming I'm talking about running better on consoles (which have mid-high range hardware from 6 years ago). The higher resolution and FPS is a valid point, but is dwarfed by the fact that the hardware present on a modern gaming machine is far more powerful than needed to compensate for that extra demand.

Even then, there ARE console ports that run sub 30fps on low res monitors on modern machines. The norm? No, but it proves the point.
Edited by Zero4549 - 3/27/12 at 11:48am
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