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[bbc] Probe finds high radiation in damaged Fukushima reactor - Page 14

post #131 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankyMcFlych View Post

I wouldn't mind nuclear if the problems of plant safety were addressed. There needs to be a 100% safety guarantee at nuclear plants because the consequences of failure are too high.
The newest generation of nuclear plants can guarantee there will never be a meltdown. But you can never have 100% guarantee of safety at ANY job or location.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankyMcFlych View Post

Fukujima and chernobyl will never be safe to inhabit by humans again.

Sure they will, it will be a few hundred years though.
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post #132 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by SectorNine50 View Post

The US does not reprocess because of an old Cold War policy put in place because someone figured that it might be easier for a bad guy to get their hands on nuclear material. It was more of a reaction due to fear, than rational thought.
The US simply needs to redact the ban.
Also, wind turbines are the least efficient per square foot of all nearly all power generators.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motoray View Post

Waste is definately a downside. France refines the waste and reuses a lot of the waste. Why we dont do that..... its a dirty process but i dont know why we dont. If france can do it no reason we cant.

we actually send the majority of our waste to France for processing, it the big things like spent fuel that we dont. part of my job is the shipping.
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post #133 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussianGrimmReaper View Post

There was an earthquake and immediately after, a tsunami hit. they had contingency plans for both, but not both at the same time.

Doesn't sound logical at all. Tsunamis and earthquakes go hand in hand.
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post #134 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by motoray View Post

They are not too young and uninformed. You are not willing to budge so they are going to so the same. Wind and solar are nice ideas but the ammount of land that would have to be used to produce the ammount of energy a nuclear plant can produce is rediculous. Let alone not reliable. Nuclear power is just too efficient to compare at the moment. One day it might catch up, but why do that when you can just do geothermal. California produces around 90% of the nations geothermal energy. Other than that until fusion is a containable source of continuous energy were stuck.
sent from droid.

It's not that people aren't budging from their stance, it's that people, like yourself, aren't even trying to understand what I am even talking about. Again, what I was talking about would take up ZERO land, as in, none at all. But anyway, more proof people are incapable of critical thinking, or even reading comprehension, apparently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindsay View Post

yes because you are such an expert on the subject rolleyes.gif
How many nuclear power plants have you worked at? I bet it is less than I have and i also have a good understanding of the other power sources out there/how they work/how practical they are. Yes lets replace everything with wind mills this sounds like a great idea .....get off your damn high horse

And also, where have I stated anything about nuclear at all. I'm no expert on that subject, and I don't try to be. But working somewhere does not equal knowledge either. If I worked as counter guy at an auto parts store, would I suddenly know a ton about cars? No, I would know a lot about looking up part numbers and fetching orders. And again, another with complete and total ignorance that couldn't read past the wind mill part...and again I find myself spelling it for everyone. So I guess I'm the idiot really.

And also, I'm not sure why it is being interpreted like I believe this idea is the only way, it was one idea of many that I and many others have, and was only posted because someone else had posted that the side that isn't 100% for nuclear power can't come up with any solutions, so they shouldn't say anything about this topic until they can. I was just offering up one such solution.
Edited by Aaron_Henderson - 4/2/12 at 1:31pm
post #135 of 160
Probe finds high radiation in damaged Fukushima reactor

really? what do you expect?
post #136 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankyMcFlych View Post

Real life contradicts you though doesn't it. What with all the old and obsolete nuclear reactors all around the world. If it was so cheap why haven't they all upgraded to modern to avoid situations like fukujima? I wonder how many fukujima's there are around the world just waiting to happen because the plants are old and decrepit.
Once again I'll repeat myself here. I wouldn't mind nuclear if the problems of plant safety were addressed. There needs to be a 100% safety guarantee at nuclear plants because the consequences of failure are too high. Fukujima and chernobyl will never be safe to inhabit by humans again.
And the true cost of handling nuclear waste needs to be included in the production cost of the electricity. This is the real deal breaker since I bet if they include the cost of storing every cubic centimeter of nuclear waste produced forever I doubt if nuclear power is competitive with anything else. ...And... looking up how much waste is produced each year it's freaking tons and tons of the stuff. Yeah I guarantee you they arn't including the costs of storing that safely for millions of years in the price of nuclear energy.
So yeah. If the industry addresses those two points I'll be fine with nuclear. Until then though nuclear won't be happening where I live.

I never once said upgrades were cheap.

Fukushima didn't melt down because the reactors were of an older style, it melted down due to next to no contingency plan. Had they been able to get the pumps working, the containment vessels did their jobs extremely well. Putting it outside a tsunami zone would've also been wise. Also, the U.S. has much stricter standards and regulations for nuclear power plants, from what I understand. The fact that there wasn't a review of Fukushima's emergency plan before a major incident says a lot.

There is no 100% safety guarantee for anything, so you'll never get that. And saying that people will never be able to live there again is bunk, look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and they were freaking bombed. The radiation is still relatively contained at Fukushima, if they are able to seal off the reactors in time, that area is still very usable. However, if those things hit the water table... Well, a very large area of Japan is in trouble... frown.gif

The cost of power includes everything the company has to pay for, that means disposing of waste, otherwise the companies wouldn't be making money off the plant.

There had only been two major incidents from nuclear plants before Fukushima. Chernobyl almost doesn't count because of how unbelievably irresponsible the USSR (I believe it was still the USSR at the time) was with that situation, which is still not contained or cleaned up (nor do there seem to be plans to, although quite frankly I'm not sure what they could do at this point).

And the Three Mile Island plant still functions today, believe it or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island 
Exelon Corporation was created in October 2000 by the merger of PECO Energy Company and Unicom, of Philadelphia and Chicago respectively.[13] Unicom owned Commonwealth Edison. The PECO share in AmerGen was acquired by Exelon during late 2000. Exelon acquired British Energy's share in AmerGen in 2003,[14] and transferred the plant under the direct ownership and operation of its Exelon Nuclear business unit.[15][16] According to Exelon Corporation, "many people are surprised when they learn that Three Mile Island is still making electricity, enough to power 800,000 households" from its undamaged and fully functional reactor unit 1.[17]

Edited by SectorNine50 - 4/2/12 at 2:18pm
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post #137 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron_Henderson View Post

It's not that people aren't budging from their stance, it's that people, like yourself, aren't even trying to understand what I am even talking about. Again, what I was talking about would take up ZERO land, as in, none at all. But anyway, more proof people are incapable of critical thinking, or even reading comprehension, apparently.
And also, where have I stated anything about nuclear at all. I'm no expert on that subject, and I don't try to be. But working somewhere does not equal knowledge either. If I worked as counter guy at an auto parts store, would I suddenly know a ton about cars? No, I would know a lot about looking up part numbers and fetching orders. And again, another with complete and total ignorance that couldn't read past the wind mill part...and again I find myself spelling it for everyone. So I guess I'm the idiot really.
And also, I'm not sure why it is being interpreted like I believe this idea is the only way, it was one idea of many that I and many others have, and was only posted because someone else had posted that the side that isn't 100% for nuclear power can't come up with any solutions, so they shouldn't say anything about this topic until they can. I was just offering up one such solution.

Your auto parts arguement doesnt work here. You need a lot more qualifications/education to work at a nuclear plant especially in any posistion of importance. They are not going to hire some 17 year old kid with no education....

In terms of land occupied, Nuclear takes up very very little relative to how much power is produced.


Also if you look at the total life cycle of wind/solar/hydro they are not exactly as clean as people think.

Going forward I wish we would spend more time/money into Fusion....
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post #138 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by SectorNine50 View Post

The cost of power includes everything the company has to pay for, that means disposing of waste, otherwise the companies wouldn't be making money off the plant.

Do they really include the cost for as long as the nuclear waste lasts? See I figure they're rolling it over into each new years costs. Say a plant produces 1 ton of waste that will have to be stored for 100000 years. I bet anything that nuclear plant is only including the cost of storage for one year in that years electricity costs. Then next year they include the cost of storing 2 tons of waste in that years electricity costs. The year after that 3 tons.

Then they'll just keep adding nuclear waste to each new years storage costs until the burden of storing and maintaining all that nuclear waste becomes unbearable at which point the owners poof, the company goes bankrupt, and the people who live there are left to deal with the mess.

I highly doubt if they are including the cost to store safely for 1000 years or 10000 years or 100000 years (or 1mil or 10m or 100m or however long it takes) the nuclear waste they produce each and every year of operation.
post #139 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankyMcFlych View Post

Do they really include the cost for as long as the nuclear waste lasts? See I figure they're rolling it over into each new years costs. Say a plant produces 1 ton of waste that will have to be stored for 100000 years. I bet anything that nuclear plant is only including the cost of storage for one year in that years electricity costs. Then next year they include the cost of storing 2 tons of waste in that years electricity costs. The year after that 3 tons.
Then they'll just keep adding nuclear waste to each new years storage costs until the burden of storing and maintaining all that nuclear waste becomes unbearable at which point the owners poof, the company goes bankrupt, and the people who live there are left to deal with the mess.
I highly doubt if they are including the cost to store safely for 1000 years or 10000 years or 100000 years (or 1mil or 10m or 100m or however long it takes) the nuclear waste they produce each and every year of operation.

Quite frankly, I'm not certain how this would be expensed. However, I feel that it would be safe to assume that the company would want to stay solvent, so costs would need to be appropriately covered. Someone who might be a bit more savvy on the accounting side may have more input there.

However, if you have the time to read it through, this might be of interest to you:
http://world-nuclear.org/info/inf02.html

I haven't gotten the chance to completely read it myself, so I don't know that it will address your question directly, but it was fairly interesting from what I read.
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post #140 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankyMcFlych View Post

Do they really include the cost for as long as the nuclear waste lasts? See I figure they're rolling it over into each new years costs. Say a plant produces 1 ton of waste that will have to be stored for 100000 years. I bet anything that nuclear plant is only including the cost of storage for one year in that years electricity costs. Then next year they include the cost of storing 2 tons of waste in that years electricity costs. The year after that 3 tons.
Then they'll just keep adding nuclear waste to each new years storage costs until the burden of storing and maintaining all that nuclear waste becomes unbearable at which point the owners poof, the company goes bankrupt, and the people who live there are left to deal with the mess.
I highly doubt if they are including the cost to store safely for 1000 years or 10000 years or 100000 years (or 1mil or 10m or 100m or however long it takes) the nuclear waste they produce each and every year of operation.
I'd be interested in the answer to that question as well. My guess is, they have a reserve account in which they place funds for future storage costs. But, the company would just have to give it their "best guess" as to how much it will cost in the future.

A similar example might be a reserve for bad debt expense. If a company knows that, on average, 5% of the sales it makes on account will not be paid for, and they make $1M in sales, then they would set aside $50,000 in a "bad debt reserve" account, to be used as writeoffs happen. They adjust the reserve account as customer invoices are paid or written off, to better reflect the remaining potential liability.

Any company following GAAP should have a similar procedure for accounting for storage costs of spend nuclear fuel, but I am not sure how far into the future they would be estimating those costs to continue. Maybe they stop the estimation at 100 years, or some equally arbitrary number? Maybe they make the assumption that by a certain point in time, we'll have found a way to reprocess and reuse the spent nuclear fuel to the point of it not even needing storage when it is finished? Either way, they must be making SOME reasonable estimate as to the future expenses of fuel storage, and have some sort of reserve account (or plan to continue contributing to a reserve account) to make sure that those expenses are paid for.

But the bottom line is, I can guarantee you that any legitimate company would not get away with not accounting for future costs of spent fuel storage in an audit.
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