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Realtek ALC898 vs Asus Xonar DX - Page 11

post #101 of 115
Care to prove that? I noticed the difference between onboard and my Xonar DX on an old pair of Logitech X-530s quite clearly, I can also hear the difference on my ASUS Vulcan ANC headphones, as can various other people. It's not as noticeable going from onboard to the soundcard as it is going from a soundcard back to onboard, but it's there for sure...I know because I've tested and retested this heaps of times.
Then again, some peoples ears are just like that.
    
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post #102 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoogie View Post

ive owned most of asus's cards and about 10 cards in general, unless ur running up to $10k+ in external audio equipment, your onboard will sound better than any soundcard(or the same if its a creative chip).. (also tested with audio technica ath-m50's)

Wrong. Depends on test methodology. Some differences can be attributed to a number of things, from output impedance, to output equipment positioning and of course things such as the dynamic range of the track.

Many double blind tests have been done that have consistently come that even a cheap Xonar DGX sounds better in a double blind test compared to onboard.

It must be double blind so the subject doesn't know what is what and therefore eliminate any kind of cognitive bias.
Also soundcards and DAC chips are designed around the human ability to hear and it's limitations. Massive companies like Asus don't invest lots of dollars into R&D if there is no difference.
post #103 of 115
From the way it was described, I don't think what TechReport did was double blind, just single blind. Also, even ignoring issues in setting up the test, it doesn't seem like they did anything remotely formal or ran enough trials for significance.


Anybody actually test the output impedance on a lot of the onboard chipsets? Data sheets say it should be pretty low, but who knows what they're putting external to the chip. A lot of the Asus sound cards and many others just have line outputs that aren't intended for headphones, so if that were worse for headphones (depending on the headphones), I wouldn't be too surprised. Depends. There are obviously many other attributes and factors other than output impedance, but that's one place to start.

Anyway, few people are really doing A/B comparisons with outputs level matched, so you might as well ignore almost everything said regardless...
post #104 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinesekiwi View Post

Wrong. Depends on test methodology. Some differences can be attributed to a number of things, from output impedance, to output equipment positioning and of course things such as the dynamic range of the track.

Many double blind tests have been done that have consistently come that even a cheap Xonar DGX sounds better in a double blind test compared to onboard.

It must be double blind so the subject doesn't know what is what and therefore eliminate any kind of cognitive bias.
Also soundcards and DAC chips are designed around the human ability to hear and it's limitations. Massive companies like Asus don't invest lots of dollars into R&D if there is no difference.

i tested for months man, with a auzentech x-fi forte, asus xonar dx, asus xonar d2x, auzentech x-meridian 2g. i used logitech z5500's, panasonic sa-ak640 bi-amp bi-wired 2.1 540w hifi, and audio technica ath-m50 headphones, the forte sounds exactly the same as the VIA® VT1828 Onboard (AKM AK4396VF DAC, LME4972 OPAMPS), the x-meridian 2g sounds a little worse, sharper, hurts ears, tinny lower quality sound at default eq, this is because it is also a CMI8788 chip, like the asus's.. The Asus Xonar DX was the worst i have ever heard, really tinny, hurtfull on ears, poor mids, bass non existant, the highs distorted or too loud, tbh it sounded like absolute crap at default eq, the d2x was a bit better but it still sounded the same as the dx except it had a warm tone to it due to the different capacitors it uses, which warm imo is terrible as you want the sound to be true natural sound, not overpowered warm and tubey like them crappy guitar amps u get in highschool for electric acoustics. and not '****/distorted/low quality' like the dx. now here lays the main problem, i spent literally about 10 hours configuring all the sound options, the eq, everything to try and fix the terrible sound these cmi8788 cards put out, nothing i could do could fix it, the eq on the asus xonar dx actually made it sound even worse, i spent $250 on the d2x and sold it after a week of testing cause it sounded terrible. i tested with all the audio equipment i listed above.

i dont see how u can call me wrong, when ive spent all that time testing, and all that money buying all these different sound cards just to find the right one for me that sounds good, im just trying to put out the obvious facts here, the asus cards are only good to be used as a bypass into very expensive audio equipment that then modifies the sound, not to be used flat/raw. as you will get a migraine, u will get terrible sound. now the forte was 1 of my favorite cards however it died cause its a version 1 due to intermittent popping noises due to heat or something.

what im saying is if you plugged your beyerdynamic DT880's into a asus xonar dx on flat default settings, and listened to anything, then plugged in into your onboard, your onboard will sound 'ALOT' better.

the asus xonar dx is the worst sounding sound card i have ever heard

edit: for on the go i have a cowon d2 16gb and a cowon d2+ 32gb, had them for ages , if that means anything to u. sound amazing, lots of adjustable settings, d2+ is my cars 48gb pmp now tho.
Edited by Stoogie - 2/25/13 at 7:45pm
    
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post #105 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoogie View Post

The Asus Xonar DX was the worst i have ever hear, really tinny, hurtfull on ears, poor mids, bass non existant, the highs distorted or too loud, tbh it sounded like absolute crap at default

I have no idea what you tried to do to that DX but my DX has none of that problem...Mine actually has a bit too much bass in my opinion, it's great when I'm home alone but if others are at my house they can clearly hear the bass from my subwoofer, I can also clearly hear the bass drum and bass guitar when I'm listening with any of my headphones from my $20 TDK in-ear earbuds to my $150 ASUS Vulcans.

Mids aren't that bad, never was tinny to me although I do get some small amounts of distortion in cymbal crashes.
    
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post #106 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Care to prove that? I noticed the difference between onboard and my Xonar DX on an old pair of Logitech X-530s quite clearly, I can also hear the difference on my ASUS Vulcan ANC headphones, as can various other people. It's not as noticeable going from onboard to the soundcard as it is going from a soundcard back to onboard, but it's there for sure...I know because I've tested and retested this heaps of times.
Then again, some peoples ears are just like that.

there is no way to prove it unless u stand next to me for 10 hours and listen while i swap out parts and do tests. oh and im also a lead guitarist for 14 years now, if that helps proove that my ears dont fail.

Edit: yes it was mainly the dryness and tinnyness of the sound from the asus xonar dx that made me absolutely hate it

Edit: thats why im holding true to my first post, as with what all my testing has proven, unless u have really expensive external equipment or very high ohm headphones, the xonar will sound ALOT crapper than your onboard or a creative card. even tho i hate creatives ca20k2 chips due to EMI issues, previous northbridge problems, lower quality dacs/opamps, but in reality you cant tell the difference from 0.00015% distortion to 0.001% distortion with 320kbps mp3's and some flac.... so why bother getting a card just for that?
Edited by Stoogie - 2/25/13 at 8:05pm
    
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post #107 of 115
tbh, musicians aren't immune with cognitive bias. No one is. In fact, they might have worse hearing perception wise than a good deal of the population due to hearing loss at loud concerts. All long-time musicans (and Asians with tonal languages) would have is a statistically significant advantage over other people is correct pitch detection.
Cognitive bias has such an effect that even if you don't think you're being bias, you are.

Also IMD is rated at 0.003% in terms of inaudibility and others things affect perception apart from cognitive bias such as output impedance of a device, auditory masking. This is why you do DBT tests, or at the very least, quick AB tests to eliminate bias and things like auditory accommodation (i.e. your ears adjusting to the sound which takes ~10 mins) and memory bias.

Hope all the tests were done with all EQ and DSPs off and also sound volume levels matched to at least 0.3 dB (ideally 0.1 dB) on EVERY card....
Also it's not the opamps / DAC chips that count, it's the circuit implementation. A source with weaker rated opamps and dac chips that's engineered correctly can easily outpreform a source that have high quality parts but poorly implemented (see Sansa Clip / Clip+ / Fuze / Fuze+ / Clip Zip vs. the horrid Hifiman HM-601).

All the Sansa's mentioned use the same parts and circuit implementation albeit sometimes slightly rearranged (but does not affect sound / reproduction of analog signal quality)

and really it goes back to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaj View Post

Anyway, few people are really doing A/B comparisons with outputs level matched, so you might as well ignore almost everything said regardless...

I'm not doubting you as a person, but unless you've done everything as suggested to avoid bias Stoogie, your testing (and thus perception) is flawed as as stated, everyone is far from immune to cognitive bias, including musicians.
post #108 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacoboy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by hansen6 View Post

mellowsmiley.gif
Just bought a Xonar DX. Tell me there will be at least the slightest difference.

The Xonar DX comes with a better DAC (Digital to Analog Converter) then the motherboard. so that's a plus
But the Xonar DX's (& D1, DS, DSX) ability to drive headphones is not that great.
The Asus Xonar DGX (or DG) comes with a headphone amplifier, the Xonar DX, D1, DS, DSX. do not.
But, if all your doing is using the sound card for speakers, then the DX is a good choice.
You could always add an external headphone amplifier to the Xonar DX, which makes a good combo.

I would disagree with you about the headphone of sonar dx not being great.

I owned an titanium x-fi hd, fiio e10, galaxy s1(wm8960), sands clip.

I use UE TripleFi 10 and beyerdynamics headphone and I coudnt detect any faults about it. Intact the xonar dx sounded better in music and videos compared to my titanium x-fi hd and fiio e10

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post #109 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinesekiwi View Post

tbh
true, i know that its more about board layout than the opamps and dacs, i did do the tests with eq flat and everything off at the same volume, i use a sansa clip+ for the gym and love it to bits cause of its flatness and most accurate sound.

so i dont know man, thats just my opinion of the sound difference of the xonar range compared to others, i have had a couple friends using a xonar dg and dgx, i told them that they would get better sound from onboard, and they tried it and they were amazed and thanked me for it.

so what im asking from you is, try your onboard, u will be surprised it may sound alot better. onboard has come a long way nowadays realtek 898+ via vt1828+

EDIT: and my opinion was that my onboard via vt1828 sounds exactly the same as a auzentech x-fi forte 7.1 which i baught for $220 about 3 years ago in AUS, heres a review: http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/auzentech_x_fi_forte_7_1_soundcard_review_|_test,1.html
now why pay more money for a soundcard when it'll sound worse(in this case CMI8788 cards, tho i did have the razer barracuda ac-1 back in the day and that was pretty decent, akm dac too)......

or u could u know like, buy all soundcards and try each one out for yourself(LIKE I DID) and pick the one u like instead of reading forums. if u have over $1000 to blow. (just resell them later on ebay or on forums or locally and lose a little bit of money)
Edited by Stoogie - 2/25/13 at 11:14pm
    
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post #110 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoogie View Post

there is no way to prove it unless u stand next to me for 10 hours and listen while i swap out parts and do tests. oh and im also a lead guitarist for 14 years now, if that helps proove that my ears dont fail.

Edit: yes it was mainly the dryness and tinnyness of the sound from the asus xonar dx that made me absolutely hate it

Edit: thats why im holding true to my first post, as with what all my testing has proven, unless u have really expensive external equipment or very high ohm headphones, the xonar will sound ALOT crapper than your onboard or a creative card. even tho i hate creatives ca20k2 chips due to EMI issues, previous northbridge problems, lower quality dacs/opamps, but in reality you cant tell the difference from 0.00015% distortion to 0.001% distortion with 320kbps mp3's and some flac.... so why bother getting a card just for that?

Put the DX back in, record from a set point in the room, if the sound is as obviously bad as you're saying then you'd be able to tell.
I'm running cheap speakers and cheap headphones and still notice the difference...and get good sound. I have no idea what the hell you did to it but it's clearly PEBKAC or a very bad card. (Also, if we're going to bring music experience into this I've been playing guitar for over 6+ years, bass for 4+, trombone for 7+ and muck around on drums semi-often along with finishing multiple courses on music.)
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5 3570k @ 4.5Ghz ASRock Z77 Pro3 Powercolor Radeon HD7950 3GB @ 1150/1350 4x4GB G.Skill Ares 2000Mhz CL9 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung 840 250GB Western Digital Black 1TB WD1002FAEX Seagate Barracuda 3TB ST3000DM001 Samsung Spinpoint EcoGreen 2TB 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Pioneer DVR-220LBKS Noctua NH-D14 Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm Corsair AF140 Quiet Edition 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Arcitc Cooling Acclero Twin Turbo II Arch Linux x86-64, amdgpu BenQ G2220HD BenQ G2020HD 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Ducky Shine III Year of the Snake, Cherry Blue Silverstone Strider Plus 600w CoolerMaster CM690 II Black and White SteelSeries Sensei Professional 
Mouse PadAudioOther
Artisan Hien Mid Japan Black Large ASUS Xonar DX NZXT Sentry Mesh 30w Fan Controller 
  hide details  
Reply
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5 3570k @ 4.5Ghz ASRock Z77 Pro3 Powercolor Radeon HD7950 3GB @ 1150/1350 4x4GB G.Skill Ares 2000Mhz CL9 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung 840 250GB Western Digital Black 1TB WD1002FAEX Seagate Barracuda 3TB ST3000DM001 Samsung Spinpoint EcoGreen 2TB 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Pioneer DVR-220LBKS Noctua NH-D14 Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm Corsair AF140 Quiet Edition 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Arcitc Cooling Acclero Twin Turbo II Arch Linux x86-64, amdgpu BenQ G2220HD BenQ G2020HD 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Ducky Shine III Year of the Snake, Cherry Blue Silverstone Strider Plus 600w CoolerMaster CM690 II Black and White SteelSeries Sensei Professional 
Mouse PadAudioOther
Artisan Hien Mid Japan Black Large ASUS Xonar DX NZXT Sentry Mesh 30w Fan Controller 
  hide details  
Reply
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