Overclock.net › Forums › Cooling › Other Cooling Discussions › Corsair H100 / H80 / H60 noise, grinding pump - *fix* + official Corsair response
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Corsair H100 / H80 / H60 noise, grinding pump - *fix* + official Corsair response - Page 140

post #1391 of 1734
Quote:
Originally Posted by wlw wl View Post

Story time.
Warning: boring stuff! (Click to show)
I just had a moment of IQ > 60, and in that short window, in my memory I was going through some noisy Hydro unit cases from the past (because yeah, I have nothing better to do!), some more distant (including the one I had), some from just a couple of days ago. I added 1 to 1 and I got 3: why do we see such a little amount of problematic H60s, compared to H80s and H100s? I have been saying for quite some time now, that the unit is susceptible to voltage noise. I just didn't realize that I had the cause in front of my eyes all the time: the same unit that suffers from the voltage noise, can be the source of the noise that causes it to malfunction (rattle, buzz).

In more detail, it's the fan controller circuit (of course not in all of the cases). Why some folks say "my unit runs fine on lowest profile but it rattles on medium or high" or "the pump is quiet without the fans but the moment I plug the fans into the H100, it starts rattling"?
Because whoever designed the circuit (CoolIT?) took shortcuts. And not just little tiny shortcuts, but like some huge leaps.
First problem is that there is no back-noise filter that is generated in the fan controller circuit due to +12V switching (that's how the fans are adjusted) - when you plug the fans into the block, this starts to happen. Second problem is that there is no input voltage filtration and regulation in the pump circuit. So it will be hit with any interference coming into it from the PSU, or the fan controller. So combine 1st and 2nd problems and you have a voltage noise generator coupled with a voltage noise absorber.
So, even if you have a good quality PSU, with a rock solid 12,00V that has a minuscule ripple on its own, the H80/H100 is potentially a closed loop of voltage noise generator and consumer.

The second problem is also present in H60s, but as with all of the newer Hydro models, they will react to ripple generated by another component - GPU for example. PSU itself isn't really at fault.

Enough of the mumble, probably nobody's going to read it anyway tongue.gif I didn't go into all the detail that's in my head because it would be even more boring. Anyway all of the above becomes clear when you look at the layout of both the PCBs and use the most basic rules like Ohm's and 1st Kirchoff's laws.

Bottom line: this explains why "post-fix" 1227+ units still make the noise, because IMO the "bearing tolerance" wasn't the actual cause to begin with, it was related but not the main problem. I would gladly suggest this and the solution to the responsible folks to avoid it in the mythical H80i/H100i, but they don't listen to me anymore. smile.gif
applaud.gif
post #1392 of 1734
Thread Starter 
Of course feel free to prove me wrong, nobody said I'm right, including me smile.gif
Edited by wlw wl - 9/15/12 at 10:02am
600
(16 items)
 
Adapters
(9 photos)
My custom water
(4 photos)
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Phenom II x4 955 BE @ 3,8 GHz ASRock 870 Extreme3 Sapphire Radeon 6850 1GB GeIL 1600 CL8 2x2GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Corsair Force GT Samsung Spinpoint F3 Custom water. Very custom. Windows 7 x64 Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Philips 232EL natec Piranha 2 gaming :) OCZ ModXStream Pro 600W Corsair Graphite 600T 
MouseMouse PadAudioOther
A4 X-748K A4 X7 500-MP Asus Xonar D1 Roccat Kave 
  hide details  
Reply
600
(16 items)
 
Adapters
(9 photos)
My custom water
(4 photos)
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Phenom II x4 955 BE @ 3,8 GHz ASRock 870 Extreme3 Sapphire Radeon 6850 1GB GeIL 1600 CL8 2x2GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Corsair Force GT Samsung Spinpoint F3 Custom water. Very custom. Windows 7 x64 Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Philips 232EL natec Piranha 2 gaming :) OCZ ModXStream Pro 600W Corsair Graphite 600T 
MouseMouse PadAudioOther
A4 X-748K A4 X7 500-MP Asus Xonar D1 Roccat Kave 
  hide details  
Reply
post #1393 of 1734
Quote:
Originally Posted by wlw wl View Post

Of course feel free to prove me wrong, nobody said I'm right, including me smile.gif
Haha i guess only corsair can do that wink.gif I personally am still on the fence and dont know what to do.
Ghost Hawk
(14 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5 7600k Asus Z270G Strix ROG EVGA GTX 1070 FE Corsair Dominator Platinum 16GB 3000mhz 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 850 EVO 500GB Samsung 850 EVO 1TB Noctua NH-U12S Windows 10 Pro 64bit 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Asus VS228H Alienware TactX Corsair AX860 Corsair Crystal 460X RGB  
MouseAudio
Alienware TactX Corsair SP2500 2.1 
  hide details  
Reply
Ghost Hawk
(14 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5 7600k Asus Z270G Strix ROG EVGA GTX 1070 FE Corsair Dominator Platinum 16GB 3000mhz 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 850 EVO 500GB Samsung 850 EVO 1TB Noctua NH-U12S Windows 10 Pro 64bit 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Asus VS228H Alienware TactX Corsair AX860 Corsair Crystal 460X RGB  
MouseAudio
Alienware TactX Corsair SP2500 2.1 
  hide details  
Reply
post #1394 of 1734
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyReZar View Post

Haha i guess only corsair can do that wink.gif I personally am still on the fence and dont know what to do.

Me too!!
post #1395 of 1734
Why do you think tilting the unit or mounting the block rotated helps alleviate the problem?
On a related note, I have to cover up the logo on the block not because I don't like Corsair, but because it is sideways now. For some reason, I can't handle that. I guess that is OCD? I don't know. I'd forgo performance in lieu of aesthetics in this build so maybe that is the reason more so. I might just get some thin craft foam cut it in a square to cover the block and then cut a hole in the middle for the white fan button to shine through. I don't know.

Oh, and having mentioned in the spoiler story wlw wl about issue arising after you first plug in fans this was exactly what happened with my first H100. It ran silently until one day I decided to try out the built in fan controller by plugging in the included fans to it and then it started the ticking and eventually a major grinding problem that would only alleviate temporarily by hitting it. At the time two diodes worked on it as it lowered it below 1800 rpms, but could still exhibit the grinding issue if the unit was knocked or for example the side panel was taken off and then snapped back on a bit to jerky.

I agree that something gets enabled or rather something doesn't work quite right after you plug fans into the controller.

Update to my present 1229 H100 is that I have it mounted turned 90º clockwise so as the tubes emerge toward the bottom of the case. This has alleviated the HDD access ticking noise, but every once in a while I will here a few ticks that go on for a few minutes and there is really nothing I can do about it anymore. Diodes make the problem significantly worse with this one. It is almost like I need more volts to alleviate it with this 1229.
My Corsair AX850 PSU runs at >12V anyway... sometimes reaching almost 12.1V I think. 3.3V/5V rail seems fine. Still within spec though and shouldn't be to blame of course. I actually freakin love this PSU. No whine and is pretty consistent unlike the Kingwin Lazer crapola that people are building with nowadays. Worse PSU ever, but people are being tricked by it.

My Corsair builder series CX430 had whine, but I can't complain for a <$20 PSU. I guess if I want spot on quality I should go with Seasonic or PC Power & Cooling. I am really happy with Corsair PSUs though.
post #1396 of 1734
Thread Starter 
I meant that while the fans are plugged in, the fan controller generates ripple on the +12V line - not that plugging them in once "enables" something that stays "on" even when you remove the fans. If you suggest the opposite, then I wouldn't have an explanation at this point, but I will think about it.

I was attempting to explain the relation between the fan controller and the pump, because I had the same thing with the H100 I used - it was silent without fans, but grinding once the fans were connected to it, then silent once the fans were disconnected and so on.
I had a number of similar reports from various people, including those cases where it was silent on lowest profile, but rattling on medium or high.

This voltage noise I'm talking about isn't the only factor, but it, combined with voltage level, the gap between bearing and shaft (so called tolerance), orientation of the block which impacts the lateral stress on the bearing, and who knows how many more things (for example, there isn't any strong indication that the coolant temperature plays a role, but maybe it does if its viscosity changes significantly with the temperature?), influence the operation of the pump, and might, or might not, make it enter a state of resonance, which we call rattling.
If a number of conditions must be fulfilled, then altering at least one of them - for example voltage (diode adapter) or ripple (ferrite bead) - would prevent that state. Returning to your first question, the margin of those conditions apparently varies from unit to unit (because, for example, due to varying bearing/shaft gap) and from system to system (various PSU with different voltages and voltage noises), and while one will shift states when tapped with a finger (noisy - tap - silent - tap - noisy - repeat), another one will require more (a voltage change - a diode), and then some won't budge no matter what. It's also not so uncommon that the unit is silent in a hand, but rattles when mounted into the PC (on the same PSU) which is a factor that is rather difficult to explain.

It's worth mentioning that my H100 was rattling all the time, then with a first 1N5817 adapter it was like I said above - only rattling while the fans were plugged in - and with the 1N4001 adapter is was completely silent with and without the fans. This fits the above "conditions theory" pretty well.

Again, these are my thoughts, I can very well be wrong.

Also, you should be able to take off the top cover - it's mounted just with some tabs, 2 per side as far as I recall - and rotate just that, to a correct position. Given that the lights would be off, but the button would still work. Or you can put something black behind it to block the light but leave the button functional.
Edited by wlw wl - 9/15/12 at 12:28pm
600
(16 items)
 
Adapters
(9 photos)
My custom water
(4 photos)
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Phenom II x4 955 BE @ 3,8 GHz ASRock 870 Extreme3 Sapphire Radeon 6850 1GB GeIL 1600 CL8 2x2GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Corsair Force GT Samsung Spinpoint F3 Custom water. Very custom. Windows 7 x64 Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Philips 232EL natec Piranha 2 gaming :) OCZ ModXStream Pro 600W Corsair Graphite 600T 
MouseMouse PadAudioOther
A4 X-748K A4 X7 500-MP Asus Xonar D1 Roccat Kave 
  hide details  
Reply
600
(16 items)
 
Adapters
(9 photos)
My custom water
(4 photos)
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Phenom II x4 955 BE @ 3,8 GHz ASRock 870 Extreme3 Sapphire Radeon 6850 1GB GeIL 1600 CL8 2x2GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Corsair Force GT Samsung Spinpoint F3 Custom water. Very custom. Windows 7 x64 Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Philips 232EL natec Piranha 2 gaming :) OCZ ModXStream Pro 600W Corsair Graphite 600T 
MouseMouse PadAudioOther
A4 X-748K A4 X7 500-MP Asus Xonar D1 Roccat Kave 
  hide details  
Reply
post #1397 of 1734
Cool beans. Thanks for taking the time to reply. I am still pretty interested in all of this as it seems you are too. I don't know if we'd ever find a permanent fix, but it is intriguing nonetheless and gives us something to do til Haswell comes out I suppose haha.

It may have just been a coincidence that the noise started after I plugged in the fans. Might just have been the right time or whatnot. I obviously had no clue that the problem even existed at the time so I wasn't really paying attention to the specifics then. tongue.gif

Do you know what the 4 screws (two on either side) of the water block do? What happens if I take them out? Can the unit be adjusted in such a manner in any way or is that just used for additional mounting options?
post #1398 of 1734
Thread Starter 
If I had a unit that I can do some test on, then I'm pretty sure there would be a permanent fix, maybe some super-duper adapter that more precisely targets the flaws. Other things I'd do to it would be more interesting, but not as easy to do for others as an adapter.

I guess you mean the four black screws that secure the mounting brackets to the block.
http://www.corsair.com/blog/installing-the-hydro-series-h100-extreme-performance-cpu-cooler-in-the-obsidian-800d/
3rd picture, outlined in yellow?
They're only there so you can swap the mount, as it's different for Intel and AMD. If you take them out, the two metal brackets will fall off. I don't really know what other mounting options do you have in mind?
600
(16 items)
 
Adapters
(9 photos)
My custom water
(4 photos)
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Phenom II x4 955 BE @ 3,8 GHz ASRock 870 Extreme3 Sapphire Radeon 6850 1GB GeIL 1600 CL8 2x2GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Corsair Force GT Samsung Spinpoint F3 Custom water. Very custom. Windows 7 x64 Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Philips 232EL natec Piranha 2 gaming :) OCZ ModXStream Pro 600W Corsair Graphite 600T 
MouseMouse PadAudioOther
A4 X-748K A4 X7 500-MP Asus Xonar D1 Roccat Kave 
  hide details  
Reply
600
(16 items)
 
Adapters
(9 photos)
My custom water
(4 photos)
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Phenom II x4 955 BE @ 3,8 GHz ASRock 870 Extreme3 Sapphire Radeon 6850 1GB GeIL 1600 CL8 2x2GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Corsair Force GT Samsung Spinpoint F3 Custom water. Very custom. Windows 7 x64 Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Philips 232EL natec Piranha 2 gaming :) OCZ ModXStream Pro 600W Corsair Graphite 600T 
MouseMouse PadAudioOther
A4 X-748K A4 X7 500-MP Asus Xonar D1 Roccat Kave 
  hide details  
Reply
post #1399 of 1734
Quote:
Originally Posted by AerieAngel View Post

Why do you think tilting the unit or mounting the block rotated helps alleviate the problem?
On a related note, I have to cover up the logo on the block not because I don't like Corsair, but because it is sideways now. For some reason, I can't handle that. I guess that is OCD? I don't know. I'd forgo performance in lieu of aesthetics in this build so maybe that is the reason more so. I might just get some thin craft foam cut it in a square to cover the block and then cut a hole in the middle for the white fan button to shine through. I don't know.

I also had to cover up the logo, but not because it's sideways, but because of the annoying white LED that couldn't be turned off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wlw wl View Post

Also, you should be able to take off the top cover - it's mounted just with some tabs, 2 per side as far as I recall - and rotate just that, to a correct position. Given that the lights would be off, but the button would still work. Or you can put something black behind it to block the light but leave the button functional.

Hmm, I didn't know that, I asked a few posts back if that was possible but I didn't get an answer.
I ended up covering it from the outside by carbon fiber paper.


Sorry about the crappy quality. smile.gif
Edited by MReda - 9/16/12 at 12:40am
post #1400 of 1734
Quote:
Originally Posted by MReda View Post

I ended up covering it from the outside by carbon fiber paper.
Looks great!
Where did you get the paper from?
How much was it?
How did you attach it to the block?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Other Cooling Discussions
Overclock.net › Forums › Cooling › Other Cooling Discussions › Corsair H100 / H80 / H60 noise, grinding pump - *fix* + official Corsair response