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echo "The `uname` Club" (NEW POLL) - Page 103

Poll Results: How long have you been using your current, main installation?

 
  • 24% (50)
    less then a month
  • 23% (47)
    less then six months
  • 14% (30)
    less then a year
  • 24% (49)
    less then three years
  • 13% (27)
    three years+
203 Total Votes  
post #1021 of 4043
For systemd, I think it is both a good and a bad thing. Its good points are how it tries to manage services, being able to tell if the service is still running, providing complete clean up, and such. I applaud such efforts and want to see them ported to other systems.

However, my problem with systemd is the politics surrounding the whole project. It is taking a "my way or the highway" approach to interoperability. It shuns BSD support, and the BSDs are not dead. They could benefit from several of the features. It forces configurations to match a certain way. Some of the changes that way are good (how many ways do we need to specify your local hostname after all?), but I worry where that may end up with regards to other configuration pieces of more importance.

I can understand wanting good high quality code, and thus not originally implementing cross-platform support, but there is no reason to shun a good well built compatibility layer. If people are willing to step up and write the code, there should be no problem with it. With some talk between the various systems, systemd could be beneficial to everyone. Instead Linux is isolating itself away from others for no reason.

I also wish it didn't try to do so much. Running a million shell scripts to do some simple tasks, like set the hostname, is a little crazy. But such initialization should be handled by other software. Overloading systemd's purpose removes it far far away from the idea of having one thing do one thing and do it well. A simple executable could handle those tasks, and would not be expensive to run.

But like I said I like its basic idea of properly managing services. And its unit files are a good idea, making it simple to get services using it. All those ideas are things I'd love to see in an init system. The dependency handling would be great to have too, but I have enjoyed that feature already in my distro (Gentoo), so I'm not as desperate to see that feature implemented.
post #1022 of 4043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post

Damn what happened to your proof of beard shot? Proof or it didn't happen. tongue.gif

I guess I'm not a true Linux guy (just a business major with a passion for it) so it's OK that I don't/can't have one right? redface.gif

I'll get better proof shot in a bit :O

Gonna go watch my dog spaz in the currently falling but not sticking snow. biggrin.gif
post #1023 of 4043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

I'll get better proof shot in a bit :O

Gonna go watch my dog spaz in the currently falling but not sticking snow. biggrin.gif

haha it's been snowing in the UK this last couple of weeks as well. My youngest cat was running around like a loon trying to catch snowflakes. laugher.gif

I love animals <3
post #1024 of 4043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

haha it's been snowing in the UK this last couple of weeks as well. My youngest cat was running around like a loon trying to catch snowflakes. laugher.gif

I love animals <3

Unfortunately we don't get much snow right where I'm at frown.gif An hour or so North and East out towards the country/mountains get's plenty of snow. But I live on the ocean right next to the bay which messes with the weather too much. Only get a good snow storm once every 4-6 years frown.gif

But yeah, my dog was having some serious fun, jumping 7' into the air trying to catch snow flakes, lol. My cat doesn't like snow, I tried to take him out and he wiggled his way into my hoodie biggrin.gif

Animals are the best biggrin.gif
post #1025 of 4043
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

haha it's been snowing in the UK this last couple of weeks as well. My youngest cat was running around like a loon trying to catch snowflakes. laugher.gif

I love animals <3

Unfortunately we don't get much snow right where I'm at frown.gif An hour or so North and East out towards the country/mountains get's plenty of snow. But I live on the ocean right next to the bay which messes with the weather too much. Only get a good snow storm once every 4-6 years frown.gif

But yeah, my dog was having some serious fun, jumping 7' into the air trying to catch snow flakes, lol. My cat doesn't like snow, I tried to take him out and he wiggled his way into my hoodie biggrin.gif

Animals are the best biggrin.gif

my dogs the best. Every time theres fresh snow on the ground he runs out, put his nose right into it it smell it and then sneezes, by the time he comes in his whole face is covered in snow. Here is nova scotia we get alot of snow, you'd think he'd get used to it, but he doesn't. He's suppose to be one of the 'smart' breeds too.
post #1026 of 4043
I have a neckbeard. I'm a CE major. biggrin.gif I had never considered the implications, but I am slowly but surely becoming even more fond of *nix... Or maybe it's the other way around or just a coincidence.

I haven't kept up with systemd, but if it's an improvement (which I've heard it is), then by all means I support it. There's something to be said for compatibility though. I'd hate for anything to happen that would limit portability and my ability to run from distro A to distro B easily. I only have the vaguest knowledge of what systemd is though, that is no knowledge of what differentiates it from its predecessors. I'll get around to learning about it one of these days. I chose poll option 3.
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post #1027 of 4043
I cannot grow a proper neckbeard. It always stops growing at ~1/4 inch and just looks patchy and pubey. I'll post a pic when I get home later.
post #1028 of 4043
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJD View Post

For systemd, I think it is both a good and a bad thing. Its good points are how it tries to manage services, being able to tell if the service is still running, providing complete clean up, and such. I applaud such efforts and want to see them ported to other systems.

However, my problem with systemd is the politics surrounding the whole project. It is taking a "my way or the highway" approach to interoperability. It shuns BSD support, and the BSDs are not dead. They could benefit from several of the features. It forces configurations to match a certain way. Some of the changes that way are good (how many ways do we need to specify your local hostname after all?), but I worry where that may end up with regards to other configuration pieces of more importance.

I can understand wanting good high quality code, and thus not originally implementing cross-platform support, but there is no reason to shun a good well built compatibility layer. If people are willing to step up and write the code, there should be no problem with it. With some talk between the various systems, systemd could be beneficial to everyone. Instead Linux is isolating itself away from others for no reason.

I also wish it didn't try to do so much. Running a million shell scripts to do some simple tasks, like set the hostname, is a little crazy. But such initialization should be handled by other software. Overloading systemd's purpose removes it far far away from the idea of having one thing do one thing and do it well. A simple executable could handle those tasks, and would not be expensive to run.

But like I said I like its basic idea of properly managing services. And its unit files are a good idea, making it simple to get services using it. All those ideas are things I'd love to see in an init system. The dependency handling would be great to have too, but I have enjoyed that feature already in my distro (Gentoo), so I'm not as desperate to see that feature implemented.

All the changes being made upstream are definitely impacting the portability of various Linux software, but I feel like it's the inevitable. Developers currently aren't, and really never have been, interested in maintaining compatibility with other projects.

systemd is definitely taking upon a lot of roles. Although I feel like in the end it'll be a benefit, simply because it will result in less duplication of effort in maintaining a lot of smaller projects.
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post #1029 of 4043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Lawnchair View Post

All the changes being made upstream are definitely impacting the portability of various Linux software, but I feel like it's the inevitable. Developers currently aren't, and really never have been, interested in maintaining compatibility with other projects.
Except that a lot of software is 99% of the way to being cross platform. Especially between unixes, there is a lot of common base between systems. My problem with systemd isn't that the main developers aren't specifically porting across systems, its that they won't even try, or accept patches from others. For pieces with common functionality (like inotify vs kqueue(?)), a simple wrapper would do to allow for portability. Of course, the BSDs may not support all of Linux's features (cgroups for instance), but neither does Linux do everything the BSDs do (jails). But that doesn't mean you can't try.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Lawnchair View Post

systemd is definitely taking upon a lot of roles. Although I feel like in the end it'll be a benefit, simply because it will result in less duplication of effort in maintaining a lot of smaller projects.
I'm not opposed to the systemd project working dealing with those roles, I worry about the systemd binary doing. It removes re-usability from the system, and forces lock-in on systemd. If the systemd project wants to, for instance, write something to deal with mounting/fsck/etc partitions, that's great. But it should be a re-usable piece that I can plug into another system and use. I don't care if the utilities sit in one repository, or share the same build system. I just want them re-usable by the whole system.
post #1030 of 4043
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Lawnchair View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJD View Post

For systemd, I think it is both a good and a bad thing. Its good points are how it tries to manage services, being able to tell if the service is still running, providing complete clean up, and such. I applaud such efforts and want to see them ported to other systems.

However, my problem with systemd is the politics surrounding the whole project. It is taking a "my way or the highway" approach to interoperability. It shuns BSD support, and the BSDs are not dead. They could benefit from several of the features. It forces configurations to match a certain way. Some of the changes that way are good (how many ways do we need to specify your local hostname after all?), but I worry where that may end up with regards to other configuration pieces of more importance.

I can understand wanting good high quality code, and thus not originally implementing cross-platform support, but there is no reason to shun a good well built compatibility layer. If people are willing to step up and write the code, there should be no problem with it. With some talk between the various systems, systemd could be beneficial to everyone. Instead Linux is isolating itself away from others for no reason.

I also wish it didn't try to do so much. Running a million shell scripts to do some simple tasks, like set the hostname, is a little crazy. But such initialization should be handled by other software. Overloading systemd's purpose removes it far far away from the idea of having one thing do one thing and do it well. A simple executable could handle those tasks, and would not be expensive to run.

But like I said I like its basic idea of properly managing services. And its unit files are a good idea, making it simple to get services using it. All those ideas are things I'd love to see in an init system. The dependency handling would be great to have too, but I have enjoyed that feature already in my distro (Gentoo), so I'm not as desperate to see that feature implemented.

All the changes being made upstream are definitely impacting the portability of various Linux software, but I feel like it's the inevitable. Developers currently aren't, and really never have been, interested in maintaining compatibility with other projects.

systemd is definitely taking upon a lot of roles. Although I feel like in the end it'll be a benefit, simply because it will result in less duplication of effort in maintaining a lot of smaller projects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJD View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Lawnchair View Post

All the changes being made upstream are definitely impacting the portability of various Linux software, but I feel like it's the inevitable. Developers currently aren't, and really never have been, interested in maintaining compatibility with other projects.
Except that a lot of software is 99% of the way to being cross platform. Especially between unixes, there is a lot of common base between systems. My problem with systemd isn't that the main developers aren't specifically porting across systems, its that they won't even try, or accept patches from others. For pieces with common functionality (like inotify vs kqueue(?)), a simple wrapper would do to allow for portability. Of course, the BSDs may not support all of Linux's features (cgroups for instance), but neither does Linux do everything the BSDs do (jails). But that doesn't mean you can't try.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Lawnchair View Post

systemd is definitely taking upon a lot of roles. Although I feel like in the end it'll be a benefit, simply because it will result in less duplication of effort in maintaining a lot of smaller projects.
I'm not opposed to the systemd project working dealing with those roles, I worry about the systemd binary doing. It removes re-usability from the system, and forces lock-in on systemd. If the systemd project wants to, for instance, write something to deal with mounting/fsck/etc partitions, that's great. But it should be a re-usable piece that I can plug into another system and use. I don't care if the utilities sit in one repository, or share the same build system. I just want them re-usable by the whole system.

The problem with systemd and the *BSDs isn’t that systemd itself isn't cross platform, its that if systemd becomes a dependency of other programs in the way udev or KMS are then we have problems. Not systemds fault but related problems to linux/gnu-only tech means that as of yet gnome 3 is still unavilble for anything except linux. The freebsd gnome team has been working hard but the latest version of gnome is still 2 on any BSD, on any Solaris, and and in fact any other *nix I can think of that doesn't use the linux kernel except for kfreebsd wheezy, which I'm pretty sure can use 3.4

EDIT--

as for jails, they may not do exactly the same on linux but chrooting comes close. It's not as easy to set up nor as easy to get full services and such going, but the same sort of setup can be had
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