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echo "The `uname` Club" (NEW POLL) - Page 121

Poll Results: How long have you been using your current, main installation?

 
  • 24% (50)
    less then a month
  • 23% (47)
    less then six months
  • 14% (30)
    less then a year
  • 24% (49)
    less then three years
  • 13% (27)
    three years+
203 Total Votes  
post #1201 of 4043
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrl1357 View Post

sometimes there's very good reasons to be against some changes. If the change comes from Lennart Poettering or Kay Sievers (pulseaudio, systemd, and udev) everybody run. While I doubt x really needs full replacing, I don't have a problem with wayland- but mir, I have a big problem with.

as for pulseaudio, I've had likewise problems... Everytime I try to rip it out of a distro I end up having topurge any thing sound/alsa based and start again. just finished getting it out of my LMDE install, never used it in my arch install, and will always be using OSS when freebsd is fully up and running

^ that
post #1202 of 4043
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrl1357 View Post

sometimes there's very good reasons to be against some changes. If the change comes from Lennart Poettering or Kay Sievers (pulseaudio, systemd, and udev) everybody run. While I doubt x really needs full replacing, I don't have a problem with wayland- but mir, I have a big problem with.

as for pulseaudio, I've had likewise problems... Everytime I try to rip it out of a distro I end up having topurge any thing sound/alsa based and start again. just finished getting it out of my LMDE install, never used it in my arch install, and will always be using OSS when freebsd is fully up and running

I have no problem with mir. It is definitely better than the other stuff that happens with Linux. 100 Distributions and 90% of them accomplish exactly the same thing. Deb and RPM packages and package managers that do virtually the same thing. Atleast with Mir it is sponsored by a company, which is exactly what Linux needs. So it isn't a hobby project and has leadership that can say "No, we aren't implementing this feature in this way, that is stupid". I would much rather the company sponsoring Linux development be Google, but at least the Ubuntu people can work with Video Card makers and give them a stable environment that doesn't change on a whim or lose development resources because someone cries and decides to fork it.
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post #1203 of 4043
Quote:
Originally Posted by frozne View Post

I have no problem with mir. It is definitely better than the other stuff that happens with Linux. 100 Distributions and 90% of them accomplish exactly the same thing. Deb and RPM packages and package managers that do virtually the same thing. Atleast with Mir it is sponsored by a company, which is exactly what Linux needs. So it isn't a hobby project and has leadership that can say "No, we aren't implementing this feature in this way, that is stupid". I would much rather the company sponsoring Linux development be Google, but at least the Ubuntu people can work with Video Card makers and give them a stable environment that doesn't change on a whim or lose development resources because someone cries and decides to fork it.

The duplication of effort is almost always compatible though:
  • You have OSS and ALSA, but you can have OSS compatibility layers for ALSA so you don't need both installed.
  • You can migrate RPM packages to Debian / Ubuntu
  • And with all of the multitudes of distros that accomplish exactly the same thing, well they're all compatible with each other.


However Mir is incompatible with Wayland and the pair of them are only supporting Xorg via hefty workarounds which is only intended as a short term solution. So we're stuck in a position where there's no incentive to write application that support any display managers other than Xorg as Xorg is the only one that will work across the board. And then what happens if Canonical drop Xorg compatibility from Mir? What happens if Fedora pushes wayland but doesn't include Xorg?

Shuttleworth is once again screwing over his entire user base because he's to boneheaded to work with the community to release a stable and universally supported Linux standard. And the most frustrating thing is this is just history repeating itself; we've seen this with Window messages (which, thankfully, he dropped). We saw this with Pulse Audio. We saw it with Unity. And it's going to happen again and again.

I honestly think he sees himself as the Steve Jobs of Linux, be he lacks any and all attention to detail (I may loath Jobs, but at least his attention to detail meant Apples products were at least solid; even if they were crippled, over priced, under performed and needlessly "religiousised")
post #1204 of 4043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

The duplication of effort is almost always compatible though:
  • You have OSS and ALSA, but you can have OSS compatibility layers for ALSA so you don't need both installed.
  • You can migrate RPM packages to Debian / Ubuntu
  • And with all of the multitudes of distros that accomplish exactly the same thing, well they're all compatible with each other.

Even with being able to migrate the packages, why? The wasted effort is in making the second package type and manager in the first place regardless of the ability to migrate them. If all distros were completely compatible, Linux would be much more commercial. Hence why Steam is only officially supported on Ubuntu. It can work 100% fine in Ubuntu, but not other distros because of different kernels, different xorg versions, or different video drivers.
Quote:
Shuttleworth is once again screwing over his entire user base because he's to boneheaded to work with the community to release a stable and universally supported Linux standard.

Nothing is universally supported with Linux. That is the problem. It isn't even completely POSIX compliant anymore. I wouldn't say he is screwing over his user base, I would say he is screwing over everyone else's user base. If Ubuntu becomes the platform all the game makers support then it will be other distros that will have to change or not be able to run the major software titles.

In this situation, choice(which Linux has plenty of) is impeding progress. Going forward, software companies are picking Ubuntu to develop support around. Valve will just be the first. My guess is whatever Blizzard game they are making for Linux will only be supported on Ubuntu as well. I would rather have an in-house piece of software than something more hobby-ish.
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post #1205 of 4043
Thread Starter 
^umm... No. Not all distros are compatible because it least some of them are trying to fill different needs, or a different spot on the spectrum. Some are useless redesigns, but atleast the majority are compatible at least to the source or the LSB. Mir isnt. It is a pointless redo of what is already under progress with wayland, it contains little real advantage, and is goig to make things a lot harder for devs trying to support 3 different standards, or just xorg for compatibility (which defeats the whole point of wayland and mir!) at this point we don't even no if its compatible for other linux distros (ubuntu does a great job of making open source software in a way where few can actully use the source) or other linux distros. The fact of the matter is that mir is set to make everything multiple times are difficult for everyone in the *nix ecosystem.... Personally I'm so mad about it I hope it puts some nails in ubuntus coffin. They are just asking for it.

KDE has already said they will not be supporting mir, I hope gnome and xfce do the same. He is screwing over his user base because already we know at least kubuntu and possible others like Lubuntu and Xuuntu won't support it. And because when support for xorg in mir ends people won't have access to alot of their programs.
post #1206 of 4043
Thread Starter 
member list updated. please tell me if I missed you. new poll coming soon
post #1207 of 4043
Thread Starter 
new poll on mir posted.
post #1208 of 4043
I honestly couldn't care less about Mir. It isn't going to hinder users that don't user Ubuntu. If a project doesn't officially support it but is asked for by the community then the distributions package maintainer will make up their own patch ( or use an existing one, if one is available at the time ) to make a program work with it. I don't see them dropping X.org support for a long time, at least until Wayland/Mir have been fully ingrained into every distribution for a long enough time that the majority of ( popular ) progs will be compatible. The rest will have to use a compatibility layer that will definitely be made by someone in due time for the oddball progs.

Personally, neither will effect me. Most of my stuff that I use isn't dependent on a display server, aside from XMonad for my tiling purposes, which can pretty much be completely rendered useless by tmux under the TTY. As I can hack my own status bar into it on the bottom like my current XMonad setup, and have another status bar on top for the window list / switcher. Only GUI prog I really use is Chromium and I can do just fine with links, used it for nearly 3 years straight without a problem ( assuming the websites were scripted properly and didn't end up backwards ).
post #1209 of 4043
In terms of mir, I'm not really keen on it, only because of the ever present fragmentation in linux. I have been looking forward to wayland though and hope to see the demos make there way to debian testing sometime soon.
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post #1210 of 4043
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

I honestly couldn't care less about Mir. It isn't going to hinder users that don't user Ubuntu. If a project doesn't officially support it but is asked for by the community then the distributions package maintainer will make up their own patch ( or use an existing one, if one is available at the time ) to make a program work with it. I don't see them dropping X.org support for a long time, at least until Wayland/Mir have been fully ingrained into every distribution for a long enough time that the majority of ( popular ) progs will be compatible. The rest will have to use a compatibility layer that will definitely be made by someone in due time for the oddball progs.

Personally, neither will effect me. Most of my stuff that I use isn't dependent on a display server, aside from XMonad for my tiling purposes, which can pretty much be completely rendered useless by tmux under the TTY. As I can hack my own status bar into it on the bottom like my current XMonad setup, and have another status bar on top for the window list / switcher. Only GUI prog I really use is Chromium and I can do just fine with links, used it for nearly 3 years straight without a problem ( assuming the websites were scripted properly and didn't end up backwards ).

Shrak: "I am immune to your GUI non-sense!! petty humans!!"




biggrin.gif

[that is tmux with elinks in left and vi (yes, vi, just for you) on the right. it took me a while to get to a state in which I could use tmux. I don't know if the b button on my keyboard is messed up or what, but the default keybindings would just not work. change b to c on the prefix, all better]
Edited by jrl1357 - 3/10/13 at 4:23pm
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