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echo "The `uname` Club" (NEW POLL) - Page 207

Poll Results: How long have you been using your current, main installation?

 
  • 24% (50)
    less then a month
  • 23% (47)
    less then six months
  • 14% (30)
    less then a year
  • 24% (49)
    less then three years
  • 13% (27)
    three years+
203 Total Votes  
post #2061 of 4043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari8608 View Post

I still don't get all of the hate. They offer a free product, so let them do as they wish with it.

And go against everything that Linux is about, while having a pretty substantial impact on the whole with Mark Shuttleworth throwing around his money all the time.

What Ubuntu does, doesn't just affect Ubuntu, it affects the community as a whole. While I don't particularly take RMS's full stance on the subject, he raises some of the concern I ( and many others ) have with Ubuntu and Canonical.

It hasn't affected me one bit. If anything, it's pulled the community together on some other decent projects. Can you give me an example of "substantial impact" on the community?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari8608 View Post

I still don't get all of the hate. They offer a free no cost product, so let them do as they wish with it.

FTFY

Okay Stallman. rolleyes.gif Free can also be defined as without cost or payment. It's an adverb; Google it.
post #2062 of 4043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari8608 View Post

It hasn't affected me one bit. If anything, it's pulled the community together on some other decent projects. Can you give me an example of "substantial impact" on the community?
Okay Stallman. rolleyes.gif Free can also be defined as without cost or payment. It's an adverb; Google it.

Not talking about free software, I use non free software all the time..it's free in the same manor facebook is free.
 
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post #2063 of 4043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari8608 View Post

It hasn't affected me one bit. If anything, it's pulled the community together on some other decent projects. Can you give me an example of "substantial impact" on the community?

Mir is going to be a huge one. Fragmenting such a substantial part of the Linux desktop sub structure was an absolute horrible idea. Diversity and choice is good for a vast majority of things, but not for a display server, for which Nvidia, AMD, Intel or other GPU manufacturers will have to support. And with Ubuntu's position, they could very well have persuaded things to go their way. Luckily though Mir missed it's 13.xx deadline and isn't even planned for 14.xx, which should give time for Wayland to get a solid foot hold in. And luckily Intel and I believe Nvidia? or maybe it was AMD have said they won't be support XMir ( Mir's Xorg compatibility layer ), and support for Mir is not a sure thing ( at least, last I read ). Which is good for Wayland. After all, the only reason for Mir's existence is because Canonical didn't like ONE thing about Wayland, so they made their own identical one with that one little change. Instead of helping to better Wayland, they decided it would be a better idea to fragment a crucial part of the desktop ecosystem.

Luckily Valve switched from Ubuntu being their "home" to Debian. Which should be another good mark against Mir and should help Wayland out more. But the community as a whole has been in an uproar about Mir for a long while because it does have such potential to hurt the community.

Ubuntu ( Canonical ), are also trying to change the whole privacy and freedom fronts, at least with Unity. They are collecting data from your searches in the dash and at least in 12.xx and below you could uninstall the shopping lense and be free of most of the spying. In 13.xx however, they have removed this ability ( at least easily ) by more tightly integrating the now "scopes" which have to be disabled 1 at a time and can't be uninstalled as a whole unless you want to lose the dash as a whole. So they essential forced their spying on you without enabling you to uninstall it without messing up a crucial part of the Unity desktop, removing both freedom and privacy in a single fell swoop.

There's plenty of reasons I'm not a fan of Ubuntu or canonical, but those right now are the biggest reasons. One of which has the potential to damage Linux desktops greatly. Ubuntu does not pull the community together anymore more than any other distribution. Valve has done more to bring the community together in the last 2 years than Ubuntu has for the majority of it's lifetime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrari8608 View Post

Okay Stallman. rolleyes.gif Free can also be defined as without cost or payment. It's an adverb; Google it.

While it can mean without cost in the gratis sense, there is always a cost.
post #2064 of 4043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

Might be a good idea to get off the internet if you can't handle it. It's nothing new, not by any stretch of the imagination. More so lately with the way Canonical has been going.
I know

I like the infrastructure, not all of canonical's new direction. That's why most of my efforts are debian, xubuntu and ubuntu-gnome.
post #2065 of 4043
I see the big changes of both Ubuntu and RedHat as an inevitable consequence of growth. Once Linux stopped looking like a hobbyist's/hackers system and started getting easy enough to pull in non-tech users the ball was rolling. Moneyed interests, including big corporations and self-styled moguls see a chance to corner a growing market they are going to try to "fence it in" so only they "have the deed to the ranch" and then can put up "no trespassing" signs and start charging people for the privilege of "crossing their property".

I don't doubt for a minute that if solar power ever gets really viable, they will try to figure out how to block the Sun. When that stuff scares me, forums like this one remind me there will remain some survivors of the Init Wars and the XWars who will keep some part of OSS alive and kicking.
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post #2066 of 4043
A sad truth that it will inevitably be the way the bigger distributions like Ubuntu head as they grow.

As long as things remain open for the enthusiasts and hackers though we will always thrive, at least in the shadows as we have been for the most part anyways. I will always love init over systemd, but I'm quite happy to see X.org be replaced by Wayland in the near future with the promises it has.
post #2067 of 4043
For anything to become the majority it has to be fairly commercial minded. As long as it's as close to true free software as possible (what i believe ubuntu is mostly), i'm happy. We still need the more advanced distros, but they can never become a major player because of this.
post #2068 of 4043
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

I see the big changes of both Ubuntu and RedHat as an inevitable consequence of growth. Once Linux stopped looking like a hobbyist's/hackers system and started getting easy enough to pull in non-tech users the ball was rolling. Moneyed interests, including big corporations and self-styled moguls see a chance to corner a growing market they are going to try to "fence it in" so only they "have the deed to the ranch" and then can put up "no trespassing" signs and start charging people for the privilege of "crossing their property".

Redhat is still very much community orientated. They managed Fedora and now CentOS too; both of which are free products based off the back of their enterprise offerings. Redhat also contribute a lot of code to the Linux kernel and user space which all distros run. This is something Canonical simply doesn't do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noskcaj View Post

For anything to become the majority it has to be fairly commercial minded. As long as it's as close to true free software as possible (what i believe ubuntu is mostly), i'm happy. We still need the more advanced distros, but they can never become a major player because of this.
As above, other major players don't turn their back on the Linux community. SuSE is another example of this.
post #2069 of 4043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Redhat is still very much community orientated. They managed Fedora and now CentOS too; both of which are free products based off the back of their enterprise offerings. Redhat also contribute a lot of code to the Linux kernel and user space which all distros run. This is something Canonical simply doesn't do.
As above, other major players don't turn their back on the Linux community. SuSE is another example of this.

I'm quite fond of OpenSuSe but I totally disagree about RedHat. I don't mean that they don't also offer to the community but that it's like shaking your hand while stabbing you in the back, IMHO. There is no doubt in my mind that systemd is, or has become a play for RedHat to "lock things up" so they have some exclusivity.

I know you like the faster boottimes, Plan9, but I really don't understand why someone like you with so much *nix background, defends RedHat and systemd when at the very least they are breaking with the entire concept of text streams, as you know a fundamental precept in Unix, and also in Linux until Lennart came along. When even logs become binary it is a short step to proprietary.

I am just so glad that already it is forking. I am also glad that Ubuntu has resisted (at least for now) with Upstart. I don't care whether Upstart is good or not in any other way than that, just something to diffuse the headlong rush to systemd.

It's pretty easy to avoid Ubuntu's transgressions, don't install it, but systemd is a plan for system-wide integration, beginning at kernel level. While there are some advantages to that, the loss of the most fundamental concepts and practices of Unix is just too high a cost, to me, and it may get ever harder to strip it out of every distro, not just one.
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post #2070 of 4043
Some other UNIXs have had binary logs for years. That isn't a new thing. And as I said before, I don't like systemd, but I do think a lot of the complaints made against it are just paranoia based on hearsay. Your points about redhat illustrates that perfectly as why would Redhat be one of the biggest contributors of code to the GNU/Linux community if they were trying to lock the platform up to themselves? Redhat are actually a great deal more community focused than Novell (SuSE) are. In fact I find the way SLES opperates to be a little underhanded compared to RHEL which still offers the sources for free (hence CentOS). OpenSuse is really more akin to Fedora than CentOS in my opinion.
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