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[MPC]Leaked AMD Trinity Slide Promises Big Gains Over Llano APUs - Page 2

post #11 of 84

    Quote:

Originally Posted by ESP View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

You mean a Pentium Dual Core E2140 ? That is from 2007, not 2005. You won't be doing much gaming on that CPU nowadays though. It's fine for web browsing and general office work, of course, but then again AMD is not going to get any business from those people that are still satisfied with what they have, right ?
Optimizing for that kind of multi-threading takes a lot of time and effort, and sometimes it just doesn't pay off or is not possible. Look at Intel: they introduced Hyperthreading in 2002!, That was ten years ago, and many programs still see a performance penalty when an Intel CPU has Hyperthreading vs one that hasn't. That is why the 2500K performs better than the 2600K in some situations, despite its lower clockspeed and 2 MB L3 cache less.
The advantage relating to saving power is not a feature of Bulldozer, they could have applied that to another architecture, just like they have been doing with Cool n' Quiet and Intel with Speedstep and then Enhanced Speedstep, and it's also, of course, because of the 32 nm technology.

1. People don't buy new laptops just because they are faster, form factor and battery life also have a lot to do with it. The fact is that most laptop users need improvements over their old GPU's, and not their old CPUs.

2. If we see this architecture in the next gen consoles then many programmers are going to gain first hand experience programming for them..

3. WRONG. The entire bulldozer architecture is designed for power savings. That is the reason for their modules to be made how they are. You dislike Bulldozer an awful lot considering you don't seem to know anything about it.

These APU's are going to be substantially cheaper and just as powerful as an intel/nvidia combination. Stop trolling. Your posts are completely ridiculous and show that you have only a very limited grasp of the tech industry as a whole.

 

People don't buy laptops just because they are faster?  Never? Are you sure?

 

If we see this architecture, that is Bulldozer, in anything, it will still be a massive disappointment every which way you look at that CPUs performance, especially when looking at the competition.  There is no magic task scheduler, ala Windows 8, waiting to unleash Bulldozer's performance, because its potential isn't there, and what performance it could gain in the new instruction set would still place behind current gen i7s, and unless Ivy completely flops out, it will be even further behind when it gets reved out.

 

The entire Bulldozer is worse than its previous generation in terms of IPC or IPS or power saving.  Lets not even bring Intel into this.  The entire Bulldozer architecture was a massive flop both on paper, and real world performance was far behind Thubans and even Denebs in some tests.

 

Those APU's are going to be substantially cheaper?  How do you know?  Cheaper like the 7970 is over the 680?  Or cheaper as in the worse performing high end Bulldozer being more expensive over a 1090/1100T?  Its going to be substantially faster than an Intel/nVidia combination?  How do you know and what combination, a Intel Core Solo and with a Mobile Geforce 7xxx series from 2005?

How about you wait till they actually release before becoming a cheerleader for them and insulting other people who have legitimate and logical opinions?


Edited by RagingCain - 4/4/12 at 4:52pm
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post #12 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

So, the CPU part is still more or less the same as Bulldozer. Sorry, there is no way around that.
From the 3 Ghz A8 3870K to the 3.8 Ghz A10 5800K the difference is 26.6% higher clockspeed + Turbo Core, which is something the 3870K doesn't have. They are claiming a 29% increase in productivity performance, whatever that means, so almost all, if not all of the gains are attributable to the higher clockspeed + Turbo Core. This means that with the Trinity improvements they most probably basically only managed to bring the IPC back to the former architecture's level.
Add to that the "Optimized for Windows 8" moniker, which basically means "no, we haven't adressed the architectural flaws, just a few improvements to make it less bad and are relying on a better task scheduler of an OS that still hasn't been released to somehow make us look a little better".
AMD is relying on the newer manufacturing process to raise the clockspeed and make up the difference instead of making the architecture better.
AMD needs help and fast. They have no direction in the desktop market. Intel proved that you don't need to invest lots of money to get higher performance by doing a new manufacturing process and new architecture at the same time like AMD is foolishly trying to do. Intel's tick - tock cycle works. AMD on the other hand is acting like a company that has money to spare but they don't.
They could have saved money by not trasitioning to 32 nm on the CPU right away and investing the money saved on improving the Phenom II architecture. If Intel did it with Nehalem on 45nm, why can't AMD ? I would say even more, Intel could technically very well release Sandy Bridge at 45nm without the GPU. AMD is trying to do everything at the same time (new architecture + new manufacturing process) and they don't have the money to make that work. Not even Intel does that.
The saving grace is that this is good enough for general purpose computers and notebooks and they have good idle power saving technology.
But in the end you need to have a proper flagship, you can't last very long if you don't have something that inspires the desire of the customers. Even car makers do that. Fiat for example owns Ferrari.

lol you do realize, we the people who custom build pc's are a small, SMALL minority. we are talking about less than 1% of all cpu's sold go to us. 99% go to pre-builts and AMD is ALOT better than intel(and cheaper) for most people. AMD is far from introuble. most of consumers are missinformed and would take a dual core amd with 8gb ram over a i7 with 4gb ram. i sell pc's all day every day and not one person has ever actually known what the hell they are talkign about. i had a guy fight with me just the other day because the cisco box said E2500 so it was faster than the netgear n600(you know the record holder for speed and distance??) just ebcause it had a higher number.

You take an average consumer and show him a pc with 8 cores and 8gb ram and a pc with 4 cores and 8gb ram, they will ALWAYS buy the 8core. PLUS, with every day use, an i7 is not faster than a BD. Set em up side by side and watch and then you will know what i mean. it only comes into play in hardcore gaming and benchmarks.
post #13 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by ESP View Post

1. People don't buy new laptops just because they are faster, form factor and battery life also have a lot to do with it. The fact is that most laptop users need improvements over their old GPU's, and not their old CPUs.
2. If we see this architecture in the next gen consoles then many programmers are going to gain first hand experience programming for them..
3. WRONG. The entire bulldozer architecture is designed for power savings. That is the reason for their modules to be made how they are. You dislike Bulldozer an awful lot considering you don't seem to know anything about it.
These APU's are going to be substantially cheaper and just as powerful as an intel/nvidia combination. Stop trolling. Your posts are completely ridiculous and show that you have only a very limited grasp of the tech industry as a whole.

1. Budget laptops generally don't have a high capacity battery, and the gains in performance negate any power savings the new manufacturing process might have brought. That is why laptop CPUs have stood at 35w TDP for ages now. You gain battery life if you are not doing much. The fact is that they need improvements in both CPU and GPU.

2. You didn't address what I said about Hyperthreading. You would suppose thaty Intel, with its huge influence, after ten years, would have sucessfully taught software producers to make programs that wouldn't be affected by Hyperthreading, but they haven't. What makes you think that AMD, a smaller company, will be more sucessful ? The fact is you need more IPC. Current consoles already have multiple CPU cores since 2005 and 2006. Has the development of games that use 4 cores been any faster ? No. Skyrim still only uses 2 cores properly, for example.

3. Wrong ? Lol. You are the one who seems to not know what you are talking about. If the Bulldozer architecture was designed for power savings it wouldn't have the huge amount of cache it does. It's an unbalanced architecture that might perform well in servers. See how a 125 w TDP FX-8150 with a massive 16 MB of cache is only capable of competing with a 95 w TDP 2500K with 6 MB of L3 or 2600K with 8 MB of L3, both of which take into account into the TDP the fact that they have a built-in GPU and the Bulldozer doesn't ? Are you calling Bulldozer power efficient ? LOL. The fact that it saves energy while idling has to do with technology that shuts down parts of the CPU, just like Intel does, that has nothing to do with the architecture, the same principles can be applied to another architecture. AMD just aqcuired a company the other day so they can implement more power saving technology into their CPUs, and they say it can be done quickly, so no major changes to the architecture are needed. As I said, you can apply power saving features in any architecture. Intel took Speedstep that they had been using in the Pentium 3M and Pentium M and applied it to the Pentium 4 Prescott 2M 600 series.
Edited by tpi2007 - 4/4/12 at 5:05pm
 
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post #14 of 84
I said it in another topic and I'll say it again:

1. Trinity uses Piledriver, not Bulldozer
2. Trinity MUST have better single-threaded performance than Llano, since both have 4 threads (so "MOAR CORES!" cannot apply)
3. IPC is not the end-all solution, IPW is (that is, instructions per watt).


It matters not what your clockrate is, it's the results that matter. Regardless of how realistic it is or not, a 5GHz CPU with even the IPC of something like Bulldozer within a 100w TDP would be a killer chip.
Edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 - 4/4/12 at 5:08pm
 
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post #15 of 84
This looks very familiar... I'm certain I've seen it a couple times before. Nice improvements, if they're not in cherry picked bullcrap situations... ie FX-8150 is faster than i7-2600k*





*in 7-zip compression
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

    Quote:

People don't buy laptops just because they are faster?  Never? Are you sure?

If we see this architecture, that is Bulldozer, in anything, it will still be a massive disappointment every which way you look at that CPUs performance, especially when looking at the competition.  There is no magic task scheduler, ala Windows 8, waiting to unleash Bulldozer's performance, because its potential isn't there, and what performance it could gain in the new instruction set would still place behind current gen i7s, and unless Ivy completely flops out, it will be even further behind when it gets reved out.

In every case I've seen in which Bulldozer's new instruction sets were utilized it outperformed the 2600k by a significant margin
Quote:
The entire Bulldozer is worse than its previous generation in terms of IPC or IPS or power saving.  Lets not even bring Intel into this.  The entire Bulldozer architecture was a massive flop both on paper, and real world performance was far behind Thubans and even Denebs in some tests.

The architecture itself wasn't really a flop. Orochi? flop. Zambezi? flop. but Bulldozer? it has potential.

First off, let me remind you what some of the biggest problems are:

1) high current leakage
2) cache thrashing
3) lower-than-expected clock speeds

Let me start with the first. This is also the reason for the third issue listed and is not the fault of AMD at all. GF's 32nm process is apparently REALLY bad. This results in very high current leakage, meaning that a lot of power is wasted and excess heat is generated. This is NOT a fault of the CPU, rather of the manufacturing process. On a better process, BD would consume much less power -- how much less, that I'm not sure anyone really knows.

Cache thrashing significantly hurts IPC and is also in part the fault of the crap process.

Bulldozer is obviously a high-clock design. Sure, that reminds people of the Pentium 4 -- but what it doesn't remind people of is IBM POWER, one model of which was released at 5.0GHz STOCK. And BD's pipeline isn't anywhere near as long as Preshott anyway; it's estimated to be between 18 and 22 (AMD won't say specifics) whereas Preshott's had 31. Now, why isn't AMD hitting the clock speeds they expected? High current leakage, resulting in excess heat and power consumption. Why is there high current leakage? BECAUSE OF GF'S CRAP PROCESS.

Now, I'm not going to praise AMD as if it's godly or something. They simply did not reach the IPC they were expecting, disregarding all of the above issues. And even with those corrected, I'm sure the architecture won't be where they expected it to be.

But once these optimizations are done by AMD, and once developers jump on the FMA4/XOP/CVT16 bandwagon(s), I see a brighter future for AMD.

As for now, Intel is the undisputed champion.
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post #16 of 84

This is not Bulldozer.... I think that is all that needs to be said here

 

This is a modified version of that design that features changes and incorporates several new technologies - including a new power-saving technology that could be considered AMD's equialent competitor to Intel's 3D gate transistors.

 

AMD FX CPUs with the same integer core counts consumed significantly less power than the Deneb and Thuban CPUs which they replaced.

 

The development Bulldozer module-based DESKTOP CPU (upon which the APU versions have been not necessarily strictly based upon - i.e. smaller caches) has been an important step forward for AMD in that it creates cores that are truly optimized for APU applications and lower power consumption, whether you like it or not, and whether the first iteration was much of a success or not.  Note that the first generation was really meant to provide an architecture to contend in the server market.  This will bring consumer market CPU improvements.  Us?  We are less than 9% of the total market; the lack of a competitive option for us isn't going to bring them down anytime soon.


Edited by xd_1771 - 4/4/12 at 5:26pm
post #17 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

1. Budget laptops generally don't have a high capacity battery, and the gains in performance negate any power savings the new manufacturing process might have brought. That is why laptop CPUs have stood at 35w TDP for ages now. You gain battery life if you are not doing much. The fact is that they need improvements in both CPU and GPU.
2. You didn't address what I said about Hyperthreading. You would suppose thaty Intel, with its huge influence, after ten years, would have sucessfully taught software producers to make programs that wouldn't be affected by Hyperthreading, but they haven't. What makes you think that AMD, a smaller company, will be more sucessful ? The fact is you need more IPC. Current consoles already have multiple CPU cores since 2005 and 2006. Has the development of games that use 4 cores been any faster ? No. Skyrim still only uses 2 cores properly, for example.
3. Wrong ? Lol. You are the one who seems to not know what you are talking about. If the Bulldozer architecture was designed for power savings it wouldn't have the huge amount of cache it does. It's an unbalanced architecture that might perform well in servers. See how a 125 w TDP FX-8150 with a massive 16 MB of cache is only capable of competing with a 95 w TDP 2500K with 6 MB of L3 or 2600K with 8 MB of L3, both of which take into account into the TDP the fact that they have a built-in GPU and the Bulldozer doesn't ? Are you calling Bulldozer power efficient ? LOL. The fact that it saves energy while idling has to do with technology that shuts down parts of the CPU, just like Intel does, that has nothing to do with the architecture, the same principles can be applied to another architecture. AMD just aqcuired a company the other day so they can implement more power saving technology into their CPUs, and they say it can be done quickly, so no major changes to the architecture are needed. As I said, you can apply power saving features in any architecture. Intel took Speedstep that they had been using in the Pentium 3M and Pentium M and applied it to the Pentium 4 Prescott 2M 600 series.

Bulldozer is a CPU Micro Architecture, not a CPU. What you seem to be referring to are the FX line of desktop CPU's. I am talking about a Micro Architecture.

The reason that Hyperthreading hasn't been succesfull in your eyes is because all you have for reference is video games. The expense of utilizing it is generally a waste of resources because the extra CPU power is not even needed to run nearly any of these games smoothly. If they were programming for Consoles that were running on a bulldozer micro architecture, their would be incentive to utilize it to it's fullest extent to get the longest life out of the console.

Again, Bulldozer does not equal AMD FX CPU's. The FX series CPU's were their first line using that architecture, and their goal was not low power consumption. The entire reasoning behind the MODULE DESIGN was for overall power consumption reduction when introduced to their APU's. Believe it or not the reason for them to switch to bulldozer was not to make desktop CPU's (which are a tiny crappy market). Seriously, you should read up on bulldozer if you're intent on bashing it. The CPU's using it might not be right for you, but they are for many many other people.
    
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post #18 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by xd_1771 View Post

This is not Bulldozer.... I think that is all that needs to be said here

This is a modified version of that design that features changes and incorporates several new technologies - including a new power-saving technology that could be considered AMD's equialent competitor to Intel's 3D gate transistors.

AMD FX CPUs with the same integer core counts consumed significantly less power than the Deneb and Thuban CPUs which they replaced.

The development Bulldozer module-based DESKTOP CPU (upon which the APU versions have been not necessarily strictly based upon - i.e. smaller caches) has been an important step forward for AMD in that it creates cores that are truly optimized for APU applications and lower power consumption, whether you like it or not, and whether the first iteration was much of a success or not.  Note that the first generation was really meant to provide an architecture to contend in the server market.  This will bring consumer market CPU improvements.  Us?  We are less than 9% of the total market; the lack of a competitive option for us isn't going to bring them down anytime soon.


Everybody in this thread knows this is not Bulldozer.

And ? What does the same number of weaker integer cores has to do with anything ? Deneb is made with 45 nm technology and Bulldozer with 32 nm. How can you even begin to compare power consumption when the manufacturing process is different and the IPC is lower ? From a performance point of view you can't even compare an FX-4100 with a Phenom II X4. AMD may well try to price them the same, but it's a downgrade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ESP View Post

Bulldozer is a CPU Micro Architecture, not a CPU. What you seem to be referring to are the FX line of desktop CPU's. I am talking about a Micro Architecture.
The reason that Hyperthreading hasn't been succesfull in your eyes is because all you have for reference is video games. The expense of utilizing it is generally a waste of resources because the extra CPU power is not even needed to run nearly any of these games smoothly. If they were programming for Consoles that were running on a bulldozer micro architecture, their would be incentive to utilize it to it's fullest extent to get the longest life out of the console.
Again, Bulldozer does not equal AMD FX CPU's. The FX series CPU's were their first line using that architecture, and their goal was not low power consumption. The entire reasoning behind the MODULE DESIGN was for overall power consumption reduction when introduced to their APU's. Believe it or not the reason for them to switch to bulldozer was not to make desktop CPU's (which are a tiny crappy market). Seriously, you should read up on bulldozer if you're intent on bashing it. The CPU's using it might not be right for you, but they are for many many other people.

Where did you read that about a supposed misunderstanding of Bulldozer being an architecture or a CPU ? Someone else's post ? Read my post again. Here, I'll quote it for you:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

1. Budget laptops generally don't have a high capacity battery, and the gains in performance negate any power savings the new manufacturing process might have brought. That is why laptop CPUs have stood at 35w TDP for ages now. You gain battery life if you are not doing much. The fact is that they need improvements in both CPU and GPU.
2. You didn't address what I said about Hyperthreading. You would suppose thaty Intel, with its huge influence, after ten years, would have sucessfully taught software producers to make programs that wouldn't be affected by Hyperthreading, but they haven't. What makes you think that AMD, a smaller company, will be more sucessful ? The fact is you need more IPC. Current consoles already have multiple CPU cores since 2005 and 2006. Has the development of games that use 4 cores been any faster ? No. Skyrim still only uses 2 cores properly, for example.
3. Wrong ? Lol. You are the one who seems to not know what you are talking about. If the Bulldozer architecture was designed for power savings it wouldn't have the huge amount of cache it does. It's an unbalanced architecture that might perform well in servers. See how a 125 w TDP FX-8150 with a massive 16 MB of cache is only capable of competing with a 95 w TDP 2500K with 6 MB of L3 or 2600K with 8 MB of L3, both of which take into account into the TDP the fact that they have a built-in GPU and the Bulldozer doesn't ? Are you calling Bulldozer power efficient ? LOL. The fact that it saves energy while idling has to do with technology that shuts down parts of the CPU, just like Intel does, that has nothing to do with the architecture, the same principles can be applied to another architecture. AMD just aqcuired a company the other day so they can implement more power saving technology into their CPUs, and they say it can be done quickly, so no major changes to the architecture are needed. As I said, you can apply power saving features in any architecture. Intel took Speedstep that they had been using in the Pentium 3M and Pentium M and applied it to the Pentium 4 Prescott 2M 600 series.


As to Hyperthreading, I'm not necessarily talking about the expense of utilizing it, I'm talking about software makers design software that is not negatively affected by its presence. That is what I said all along. Read it again.

Here (and in the post above I just quoted):
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

You mean a Pentium Dual Core E2140 ? That is from 2007, not 2005. You won't be doing much gaming on that CPU nowadays though. It's fine for web browsing and general office work, of course, but then again AMD is not going to get any business from those people that are still satisfied with what they have, right ?
Optimizing for that kind of multi-threading takes a lot of time and effort, and sometimes it just doesn't pay off or is not possible. Look at Intel: they introduced Hyperthreading in 2002!, That was ten years ago, and many programs still see a performance penalty when an Intel CPU has Hyperthreading vs one that hasn't. That is why the 2500K performs better than the 2600K in some situations, despite its lower clockspeed and 2 MB L3 cache less.
The advantage relating to saving power is not a feature of Bulldozer, they could have applied that to another architecture, just like they have been doing with Cool n' Quiet and Intel with Speedstep and then Enhanced Speedstep, and it's also, of course, because of the 32 nm technology.


As to everything else you said, I already stated it, this might perform well in the server market.
Edited by tpi2007 - 4/4/12 at 6:09pm
 
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post #19 of 84
why is everyone arguing over why trinity will be a massive flop when it is noticeably more powerful than the previous versions of the apu? these aren't supposed to be more powerful than a discrete gpu/processor platform computer. these processors are directed towards a more mainstream market and will sell like crazy because they will be in every laptop and pre-built computer everywhere. not everyone has the experience or the knowledge to build their own computer and to those people, this processor is a godsend. no need to spend extra $$ on a discrete gpu computer when you can get discrete-level graphics with an apu without the applied price tag of one.
post #20 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Usario View Post

This looks very familiar... I'm certain I've seen it a couple times before. Nice improvements, if they're not in cherry picked bullcrap situations... ie FX-8150 is faster than i7-2600k*





*in 7-zip compression
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

    Quote:

People don't buy laptops just because they are faster?  Never? Are you sure?

If we see this architecture, that is Bulldozer, in anything, it will still be a massive disappointment every which way you look at that CPUs performance, especially when looking at the competition.  There is no magic task scheduler, ala Windows 8, waiting to unleash Bulldozer's performance, because its potential isn't there, and what performance it could gain in the new instruction set would still place behind current gen i7s, and unless Ivy completely flops out, it will be even further behind when it gets reved out.

In every case I've seen in which Bulldozer's new instruction sets were utilized it outperformed the 2600k by a significant margin
Quote:
The entire Bulldozer is worse than its previous generation in terms of IPC or IPS or power saving.  Lets not even bring Intel into this.  The entire Bulldozer architecture was a massive flop both on paper, and real world performance was far behind Thubans and even Denebs in some tests.

The architecture itself wasn't really a flop. Orochi? flop. Zambezi? flop. but Bulldozer? it has potential.

First off, let me remind you what some of the biggest problems are:

1) high current leakage
2) cache thrashing
3) lower-than-expected clock speeds

Let me start with the first. This is also the reason for the third issue listed and is not the fault of AMD at all. GF's 32nm process is apparently REALLY bad. This results in very high current leakage, meaning that a lot of power is wasted and excess heat is generated. This is NOT a fault of the CPU, rather of the manufacturing process. On a better process, BD would consume much less power -- how much less, that I'm not sure anyone really knows.

Cache thrashing significantly hurts IPC and is also in part the fault of the crap process.

Bulldozer is obviously a high-clock design. Sure, that reminds people of the Pentium 4 -- but what it doesn't remind people of is IBM POWER, one model of which was released at 5.0GHz STOCK. And BD's pipeline isn't anywhere near as long as Preshott anyway; it's estimated to be between 18 and 22 (AMD won't say specifics) whereas Preshott's had 31. Now, why isn't AMD hitting the clock speeds they expected? High current leakage, resulting in excess heat and power consumption. Why is there high current leakage? BECAUSE OF GF'S CRAP PROCESS.

Now, I'm not going to praise AMD as if it's godly or something. They simply did not reach the IPC they were expecting, disregarding all of the above issues. And even with those corrected, I'm sure the architecture won't be where they expected it to be.

But once these optimizations are done by AMD, and once developers jump on the FMA4/XOP/CVT16 bandwagon(s), I see a brighter future for AMD.

As for now, Intel is the undisputed champion.


I see what you did there Mr. 7-Zip.  And you are right, with those future instruction sets it will be more competitive arch, but that being said, its un-competitive in real world performance, take real world meaning market usable software currently and future available.  I am not aware of any major consumer products switching to those ins sets anytime soon, experimenting sure.    

 

We can be hypothetical all we want, regarding leakage, unfortunately for consumers and the market, the CPU, that was hyped to hell and back was never delivered.

 

You can blame a foundry for giving AMD delays with bad returns/processes, not for AMD actually releasing the product.  AMD chose to release and market it as is, Global Foundaries is no more responsible for it being the way it is more than you or I are.  I do agree GF has sketchy products, thats not in question.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mchlmacdonald View Post

why is everyone arguing over why trinity will be a massive flop when it is noticeably more powerful than the previous versions of the apu? these aren't supposed to be more powerful than a discrete gpu/processor platform computer. these processors are directed towards a more mainstream market and will sell like crazy because they will be in every laptop and pre-built computer everywhere. not everyone has the experience or the knowledge to build their own computer and to those people, this processor is a godsend. no need to spend extra $$ on a discrete gpu computer when you can get discrete-level graphics with an apu without the applied price tag of one.

 

No one, I believe, is saying it will be a massive flop.  It would be ill advised though to believe these slides, if not for what happened with Bulldozers identical marketing, then for the fact that its just smart and see real actual numbers.


Edited by RagingCain - 4/4/12 at 6:41pm
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