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Chimp Challenge 2012?? - Page 11

post #101 of 314
Handicapping is always one formula, but it has many factors that must be accounted for, in it. OK, well the WFA (Weight for Age) handicap in horse racing is now a table, but it was derived from a single formula. biggrin.gif

Regarding the whole team format:

I'm committed to it, now. I wasn't last month, but the more I thought about it, the more sure I am that the whole team format, is the format for now, and the future of folding team races.

I am NOT asking people to spend their time setting their folding rigs, changing their name and passkey for 10 day. Then go back and doing it again. That's a waste of time and money.

Any problems that arise, we can correct with proper handicapping - yes it will take some adjustments, but it's not rocket science. People have been handicapping races since before the Pyramids at Giza, were built -- we can do this!

OK, let's talk about the (factors), in the handicap:

1) Points from the last CC will form the basis for these calculations. That levels out the competition from year to year, while encouraging the teams to continue upping their production and/or membership.

2) Adjustment for whole team format:

Here's the approximate percent of a few teams that participated in the 2011 participation:

EVGA - 65%
HWC - 85%
OCF - 67%
OCN - 80%

So teams points should be adjusted upward (100% +) by:

EVGA - 35%
HWC - 15%
OCF - 33%
OCN - 20%

Which gives us the whole team figure for 2011 CC points. Similar calculations would be made for each competing team.

I did not think it would be necessary, but now it appears it is - we need a rule that no team can run a promotion, during the race. There's too much difference between EVGA and say, OCAU, to permit promotions/contests of any kind, during that period - due them either before or after the race. It's only 10 days so it should be no problem.

Whole teams can not merge - only individuals can join with a racing team. That means they can join in, but they have to change their team number in the folding client. Requests to add team 33 (for example), to your team, will not be granted.

Unless somebody convinces me another approach is better, we'll use the Factor or Conversion format - all teams will start at zero points on the first day. The Boost format did not seem to appeal any more than the other format, and would be somewhat "odd" to those who are used to the Factor approach.

HPCS points will not be treated any differently than any other points. If you have them- great! If your team doesn't have them - sorry about that! If the HPCS service stops - it just stops. We don't take any action one way or the other, about it.

A teams increase in membership or production from one year to the next, will not be a factor in the race. Your handicap is calculated based ONLY upon your performance in the CC, last year. New teams joining in will be handicapped based on their last six months of folding numbers. If those numbers have been skewed (say by a guest team folding with you), then we'll use the average of the months not so affected.

Please comment, but the "whole team" format versus the "individual team" format, is not something I will discuss further. That matter is closed.

Thanks for the access to the CC forum.
post #102 of 314
With that info, I am out. Going to help a former team. smile.gif
    
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post #103 of 314
before I sign off today -

let the teams chose whether the keep the CC names or not
majority rules

if it's gone then you can select the appropriate Format for that scenario

I realize I can't please every person nor every team perfectly
we will lose some folders and gain a few more

as people get accustomed to the new format - people may come back (in later years )that left
what I don't want is for the discussion to drive them away

with a family member being ill - folding and crunching mean more to me when illness hits close to home
so please try to put petty differences aside and try discussing thru it...develope formats...chose the options and vote with your conscience

It's not anyone place but your own to chose what is important to do....for yourself and your team

as long as you fold for people and cures you already have my friendship
Edited by Xavier Zepherious - 4/14/12 at 12:50am
post #104 of 314

Whole teams, not CC names.

No actual conversion, but still including a conversion rate.

Teams can't promote during the event.

No comments about teams unofficially merging and whether we do anything about them.

Handicap based but still biased towards small teams.

 

Who exactly is agreeing to that?

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post #105 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by zodac View Post

Whole teams, not CC names.
No actual conversion, but still including a conversion rate.
Teams can't promote during the event.
No comments about teams unofficially merging and whether we do anything about them.
Handicap based but still biased towards small teams.

Who exactly is agreeing to that?

You don't seem to like any handicap format - points (using Boost), or conversion format. I'm working on a spreadsheet now that may help that out.

Do you WANT to allow promotions during the CC? I'm happy to change that recommendation, if that's what the majority of the teams want. Very flexible on that point.

Teams can't unofficially merge - but each member of another team, CAN join your team, by changing the passkey and team number on their folding rig(s). No team can merge all at once, with another team, however. You can't say "Put team 33 in as our team's points, they're merging with us." Can't do that.

The Handicappers job for the race, is to fix that bias. That's what I'm working on, right now.

I'm very flexible on every format item EXCEPT the whole team issue. That is a must, for me.

I'm running these things by you here first, as a courtesy.
post #106 of 314

1) I'm not against handicaps; I'm against using handicaps alone, since we made that error last year. Actual production needs to be taken into account too.

 

2) I feel that promotion should be up to each team. There were discussions about limiting the amount of prizes that each team could offer up (since some teams couldn't compete with others on that front), which is fair enough, and we could have further discussions about that. But saying teams can't promote during the event is anti-Folding to me.

 

3) When I mean "merge", I mean when, say, 10-20 Folders in a non-CC team want to take part, and move to another CC team. Or worse, what happens when an entire team (or a large number of members) decide to do that? I don't think that's something we can account for in a system (since it's always gonna be based off of points) - do we think this is enough of a potential issue that we need to discuss how we act in that situation?

 

4) Problem I have with the Boost system and the handicapper (the role, not you :P) is that it's essentially the same system, in another form. The only way to determine the start position for each team is to base it off of relative performance.

 

5) I fear this is where we might come unstuck. I see no reason why people can't take time for an event once a year to change their usernames. If they can't, then they don't deserve to take part. That's my view.

 

And you haven't addressed csm's concern - what happens when a member doesn't want to take part in the CC? Do you suggest they Fold for another team, or just not Fold at all, for that time?

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post #107 of 314
I sure hope it gets sorted out proper. I'll be folding regardless, under my name, or the Chimp Challenge name. Until then, let's all send positive energies to the captains, so that this may be sorted amicably and quickly. smile.gif
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post #108 of 314
I'm not using handicaps alone. I'm handicapping this personally. I have tricks! wink.gif

Whatever the teams agree to on promotion issue, is fine with me. I won't make a recommend on that matter, in all likelihood.

Any kind of movement of folders, from non-CC to CC teams, would have a big impact, and there is no way under consideration to stop that or limit it. If the teams come up with a way, then OK. I don't know a way right off the top of my head, except by limiting the number of folders a team can have, which isn't what we want. Let's hope any "migration" of folders, will roughly even out - but I do have a planned factor for that in my handicap spreadsheet. Haven't decided on the range of values for it just yet, however.

Handicapping uses EVERY factor, not just past performance, to even out the teams. It is arbitrary, but it seem that is what you want. I resisted it at first, because it's hard to defend it. But once the "curstomer" (the teams in this case), know that they want a handicapper, (or at least might want one), then it becomes much more acceptable for someone like me, to be arbitrary.

I used to think like you. Then I took an arrow to the knee... biggrin.gif (Skyrim joke)

Seriously, whole team is the only way to move forward. You'll see it sooner or later. Your team has always had that as an advantage over EVGA, but you don't need that now. You have a handicapper to handle that.

For CSM, I suggest he change his thinking, to change his fortunes, and then change the thoughts and fortunes of his captain and team.

And then they all fold in the race. thumb.gif Their team wants and needs them.

Don't you think it's a little silly to say "No, I won't fold at all and have fun and support my team, because I can't get just what I want - even though I have never tried it?

I know kids facing eating veggies that sound a LOT like that. XD

The purpose of the CC are:

1) To have fun for the non-technical types (like us), who frequently can't appreciate what the folding project is all about.

2) To help create good word of mouth for FAH, and motivate folders to attract more folders to FAH.

3) To increase, if only temporarily, the amount of wu's that get folded.

I know that if we include hundreds of more folders, by using the whole team idea, we will surely create slightly more buzz, at least, AND at the same time, avoiding the problem of "who is supporting the team and who isn't?", kind of recriminations. You saw what can happen with that big-time, in a previous CC race, with the [H]ardApes of [H]ardOCP.

It's been about 2 years, and STILL their team is bruised and battered emotionally, from that wicked little self-destructive pursuit. We've had something similar a few years back, on OCF. it got handled, but that won't happen with every team that comes to race. Some will implode unless we make it a whole team contest.

I've given you several reasons to support the whole team concept. You have nothing except using it as a loyalty test or some such. Sooner or later, you'll see it for what it is - a crutch. You have to let loose of it, to get moving forward and up to speed.

Four years or so ago, I was right where you are now with this. For three years now, I've been waiting for this change, in the CC. It's never going to happen unless those who know it's better, make it happen, I can see that clearly. Waiting for three years, has got us nothing.
post #109 of 314

Adak, I know what the CC is for. Doesn't change the fact that a bad system means people won't push.

 

First off, you say to csm that he should change his attitude. I say that people who don't wanna change their name over should change theirs. I'm sorry, but I can't see any legitimate reason why you would need to change that. It's something that affects a minority of members, and if they can't be bothered, then good riddance; I wouldn't want someone Folding alongside me against their will.

 

You mention that some teams can implode because they can't work together to take part in an annual event - that says more about the state of those teams than the state of the competition.

 

Secondly, we used handicaps last year. They failed. Why are you insiting on using a system based on the same thing that didn't work last time around? Handicapping does not use all factors, it uses one - relative performance. Handicapping alone does not work.

 

Not to mention the fact that one person is going to decide the handicaps. How are you working that out? If you've got a formula that perfectly reflects teams' relative performance (and somehow won't fall victim to last year's flaws), why aren't we just using that as the event's algorithm, instead of adding another layer on top?

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post #110 of 314
I've seen zodac's formula and I can say that right now it's the most logical solution to our problem.
Relying solely on a handicap favors smaller teams, and the formula I've seen takes care of that.
Regarding my point, there needs to be changeover. Face the facts, you (borgs) are a VERY small minority of the top 10 teams and their PPD; it's illogical to say everyone is automatically participating in the competition, and it's rude to think that's an assumption you can make.
In addition, it's not the CC's problem if your team can't cope with petty drama issues.
Edited by csm725 - 4/14/12 at 6:43am
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