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post #111 of 314
Hey Folding friends. Texinga here from over at the EVGA Team. I'm not really here to step-into Xavier's shoes because mathematics, handicapping, etc are not my strong suit. But as you know, his Father is very ill and he is taking care of his family right now. Purely from an outsider's view to what is being done to develop this years CC, I think there are some things that might help us (at least myself) move forward. We all see that there is still disagreement over the best method to measure this competition. Even on our Team, among those that are very good with this kind of stuff, the opinion appears to be that they have not yet seen a measurement that they feel is better than last years. Now, please don't ask me to defend what is best because I'll turn into mindless artichoke within minutes. tongue.gif

It appears that there is lots of discussion right here (and in other Teams forums) about the ideas being floated. 99% of us have no view into the Captain's Forum, so we don't really know all the ideas or what various points you may have agreement. Could one of you Captains maybe summarize the going suggestions that are before us so that we could know what they are? I've been hearing about this person's idea and that, but have no place where I can see them in layman's terms. I think that would be useful, especially if you want the various Teams to vote on which idea to go forward with into CC2012. I hope that I'm not asking the impossible here, just trying to wrap my own head around what people want to do and hopefully be able to point my Team members to it.

I suggest that we break this down into just a few digestible areas that could be considered (Team name thing, the top 2-3 measurements, etc) so that we can vote on that stuff and help you Captains to move forward. I do believe that each of you wants the right things and that Folding is first and foremost...it is for us too, so on that one we have common ground already. thumb.gif
post #112 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by texinga View Post

Hey Folding friends. Texinga here from over at the EVGA Team. I'm not really here to step-into Xavier's shoes because mathematics, handicapping, etc are not my strong suit. But as you know, his Father is very ill and he is taking care of his family right now. Purely from an outsider's view to what is being done to develop this years CC, I think there are some things that might help us (at least myself) move forward. We all see that there is still disagreement over the best method to measure this competition. Even on our Team, among those that are very good with this kind of stuff, the opinion appears to be that they have not yet seen a measurement that they feel is better than last years. Now, please don't ask me to defend what is best because I'll turn into mindless artichoke within minutes. tongue.gif
It appears that there is lots of discussion right here (and in other Teams forums) about the ideas being floated. 99% of us have no view into the Captain's Forum, so we don't really know all the ideas or what various points you may have agreement. Could one of you Captains maybe summarize the going suggestions that are before us so that we could know what they are? I've been hearing about this person's idea and that, but have no place where I can see them in layman's terms. I think that would be useful, especially if you want the various Teams to vote on which idea to go forward with into CC2012. I hope that I'm not asking the impossible here, just trying to wrap my own head around what people want to do and hopefully be able to point my Team members to it.
I suggest that we break this down into just a few digestible areas that could be considered (Team name thing, the top 2-3 measurements, etc) so that we can vote on that stuff and help you Captains to move forward. I do believe that each of you wants the right things and that Folding is first and foremost...it is for us too, so on that one we have common ground already. thumb.gif
First of all thanks for coming over and joining, I appreciate that.
Mathematics wise, it's clear to me zodac's formula is the way forward.
The other issues need to be put up to vote, both on the captains' and on the individual forum, posthaste (my favorite word).
The issues do need to be broken down and put to voting definitely.
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post #113 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by zodac View Post

1) I'm not against handicaps; I'm against using handicaps alone, since we made that error last year. Actual production needs to be taken into account too.

2) I feel that promotion should be up to each team. There were discussions about limiting the amount of prizes that each team could offer up (since some teams couldn't compete with others on that front), which is fair enough, and we could have further discussions about that. But saying teams can't promote during the event is anti-Folding to me.

3) When I mean "merge", I mean when, say, 10-20 Folders in a non-CC team want to take part, and move to another CC team. Or worse, what happens when an entire team (or a large number of members) decide to do that? I don't think that's something we can account for in a system (since it's always gonna be based off of points) - do we think this is enough of a potential issue that we need to discuss how we act in that situation?

4) Problem I have with the Boost system and the handicapper (the role, not you tongue.gif) is that it's essentially the same system, in another form. The only way to determine the start position for each team is to base it off of relative performance.

5) I fear this is where we might come unstuck. I see no reason why people can't take time for an event once a year to change their usernames. If they can't, then they don't deserve to take part. That's my view.

And you haven't addressed csm's concern - what happens when a member doesn't want to take part in the CC? Do you suggest they Fold for another team, or just not Fold at all, for that time?



1. yes I agree - the problem is the data..it's not reliable due to years of poor participation and from bad formula
any good statistician would tell you that. the problem is a balance point - and that is tough to do with biased data


this is why PPD is good - it's unbiased and sets a bar to hit... if you want to be first or the top you have to work to get there, or if your goal is to teak on your next closest rival this works to see how well your team is doing(when you both push). if you can't do it you come up with a plan to increase and grow membership

we have some agreement on dual race...we have teams (even HWC) that just wanna fold and will would do it solely on PPD

however I believe there must be a separate race for those teams to measure for team growth (PPD wise and membership)


note -changing formula during a contest is also not a good idea - teams and people can feel cheated if you change things midstream (format/rules/formula) because they came in with perceived idea and that got taken away.and now unfavors them and helps others


conversion: adding new team growth (members ship drive/mergers) as conversion must be a minor factor - otherwise large mergers end the contest from the start


until we can determine a proper combination for PPD and Team growth - we will always be making enemies in both camp

by having both races we can reward for both

if we have a combined - it can work - but if we get it wrong it creates even more issues and more hard feelings


2. promotion is good to get new users -and it creates publicity for it - in fact if we grow it large enough corporate donation could become a part of it
we want to add teams - Im not against it - however instead of individual teams running promotion - we can look at all the teams chipping in to one pool

however if this is a sticking point I suppose our team can get rid of it for the chimp - you might have to fly it past the new rep

.
3.mergers - big issue...like I said there is nothing stopping a whole team from ruining the CC ...[H} could as a whole team back a small one making a mockery of it
last year there was talk of joining with the smallest team because it f felt unfair, just to show how it can be manipulated

4. you hit that right zodac - i have members saying the same thing ...some complaining it's almost identical to last years CC

5. I leave that to teams deciding that.. if the teams want it gone... it's gone... Im with some that like it to stay - but that doesn't mean I force it apon others to accept it (if its the minority that only wants it)
that would even be worse

the goal should be to have two choices - one with CC names and one without - and then let the teams decide

as for those who would not like to join the CC (under full team idea) they could crunch and help promote their own crunching teams - there is other medical issues to solve too as well as science to be done

they could also take a vacation - get their rigs cleaned out - game for a week - repairs - there is MPC and folding for gordon& rose
..

so you lose some (temporarily under full team)so even if your last CC was 80% or 90% then your team would at best lose only a max of 10-20 (that didn't join) ..
but you probably count on half doing it anyways

is it any better than losing those that don't switch because it feels unfair to them .. to lose their own points - or go thru the hassle - time and effort to switch and under some perceived unfair formula for conversion (and production goes down)

what you asking is for a minority of your team to dictate(the 10 -20% that don't get involved) to dictate the terms of the contest - they can do other things like I said
they don't have to change behavior - they can fold - but just do what they normally do (and not increase to help out).

like how is counting their points really change things - they folded during past CC...how is counting their points now gonna make a difference to them?

and there is nothing stopping us from including their production within a formula without their knowledge - so what would change?
even under using CC names

all you change it informing them - that's all

Edited by Xavier Zepherious - 4/14/12 at 8:42am
post #114 of 314
I give up. I'm done trying to contribute.
I think zodac's formula is the way forward, team names need to be preserved, and we just need to fold our hearts out.
Rather than going for first, go for beating your closest competitor, as Xavier said.
More importantly, get more science done, and have tons of fun.
I'm tired of the drama and I've barely been a part of this.
I do get the feeling joining the smallest team to screw the whole CC up is something [H] would do... in fact one of them discussed doing exactly this in IRC not an hour ago.
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post #115 of 314
I thought the CC was easy and fun, guess not.
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post #116 of 314
CSM725, thanks for the "welcome" and by all means don't quit offering your thoughts! IMO we have too few right now that are engaging these ideas (across all the Teams) and we need all we can get. smile.gif

A little help please from one of you. Is this Zodac's latest formula or has it changed?
http://www.evga.com/forums/fb.ashx?m=1487749

I'd like to at least try to get all this stuff in one place where my Team could consider it all, and if we could have a single place for all of us to view it, even better. I don't have time to scour all the Forums as I'm sure you don't either to see what we are considering. The Team Captains idea is still very valid, but as Chimps in general, we don't have a common place to stay abreast of the latest developments.

From what I've seen, we have basically (3) lines of thought going around; OCN's via Zodac, Overclockers via Adak and several at EVGA (none of which I could say are agreed upon by the Team). Unless we can get this stuff out in some kind of layman's format that people can understand, it is hard for me to see how a decision can move forward. I think we can all safely say that progress has reached a rather large hurdle. I think we are all here wanting to reach agreement on CC 2012, but it is becoming complex and unwieldy at times. I feel that we all need to take a deep breath (on every Team), see where we can agree (whether it's 100% of what we want or not) and find areas where we could move forward (agree).
post #117 of 314
Yes, that is the unrefined latest revision that zodac is suggesting.
Anyways, similarly to our HPCS months, you guys had March Madness which was 200k more. Would you really like that to be included?
I think OCAU's idea is not that great (the second part of the post linked).
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post #118 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by csm725 View Post

Yes, that is the unrefined latest revision that zodac is suggesting.
Anyways, similarly to our HPCS months, you guys had March Madness which was 200k more. Would you really like that to be included?
I think OCAU's idea is not that great (the second part of the post linked).

Hehe, while March Madness could be a reflection of what we can do during CC, it certainly would not be what we do outside of a contest period.

In past years (corporate life) I worked a lot as a "contract negotiator" and one thing that I learned/took to heart. There is no well-fitting agreement that doesn't include a win/win attitude in the negotiations. What is needed here at this time, is win-win thinking whereby we get some things we want and we give on some things. If we try to wait until one Team or another agrees on any one contest criteria, we could likely be here for years trying to hammer this thing out. The longest contract negotiations I ever had (which did literally take years) were ones where the win/lose principles were being followed.

So, I suggest (and have asked same of my team-mates) that we prepare ourselves to consider how we can arrive at mutual agreement, understanding that we will not get all that we want. Whether it is OCN's solution, Overclockers or other suggested format, we all need to be prepared to know where we can give and where we can agree. If we could work through those areas in a mature manner, this thing could be worked out in short order and the ultimate "win" is Folding. My two cents...
post #119 of 314
Here are my thoughts on this:

Recruiting for the CC was half the fun of the contest and getting people to change over to the chimp name is part of that!

Is there a way to use 50% of zodac,s formula and 50% of Adak's formula ?

Shorten the contest to 5 days, 10 days is too long especially if your losing!

I would rather play the game and lose than not play at all !

Winning is always fun but there can only be 1 winner !

Let get this party started !! smile.gif
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post #120 of 314
You WANT handicapping! Every "formula" is just another way to handicap the race. You just need smarter handicapping. Last year was a good start, but we learned from that, as well. (And just for your info, last year's CC finish, was the closest ever, when you look at the finish of ALL the teams, as a group)

Here's an example of a problem with basing the handicap on team production, during the year:

Xavier from EVGA has mentioned that they are considering having sub-teams leave EVGA folding, and become "guest team folders" on other teams.

OK, nice idea. Spread what they know about EVGA products and folding, to other teams -- good.

Now it's time for the CC. And back to EVGA the guest team sub teams, all go. BUT their points haven't been handicapped! They were folding for other teams! So EVGA has an artificially high handicap, and easily runs away from everyone in the CC race.

It will be one year behind, but you have to use the last year's CC race to base this year's CC handicap, upon. To handle the "one year behind", you can do a weighted average of each team's average monthly production, but it has to be given a weight that allows the CC production of a team, to be the major factor.
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