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Chimp Challenge 2012?? - Page 13

post #121 of 314

We did learn from last year - that we relied on relative performance too much. That including other factors (of which, total points production must be one of them) would probably bring things back into line. And yet that's being ignored...

 

If last year was the closest result in years, why are we going for a massive change? A couple of tweaks would address the bias towards small teams, and hopefully make it fair across the board.

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post #122 of 314
Because last year's CC did not use the CC performance in the previous years, as their basis. The problem of teams merging would be just as bad as before.

You MUST use the last year's CC performance, as a large part of the handicap basis for this year. If you don't understand that, run it through a spreadsheet with some projections which include "merging", like NCIX and HWC did last year.

Because teams absolutely WILL be doing that again, this year - and they won't be nearly as honest and up front about it, as NCIX and HWC were, last year.

@CSM:
Quote:
I've seen zodac's formula and I can say that right now it's the most logical solution to our problem.

Yes, if you want skewed results and to see large teams zoom right to the top of the heap. frown.gif

Did you miss the fact that OCN and EVGA shot right to the #1 and #2 places in her projections?
Edited by Adak - 4/14/12 at 2:25pm
post #123 of 314

I'm not saying not to use last year's production - that can be used in the handicap part of the system.

 

And Adak, in my system, HWC come second, Evga third. But why would it be a bad thing for Evga to be 2nd, or 1st? Why would a smaller team need to be ahead of them, if Evga did really well in absolute points?

 

Those stats were using last year's stats - what do you feel should have been the final ranking? I can try to tweak the formula to match that.

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post #124 of 314
Because in any fair handicap system, HWC should win - they were the "Secretariat" of the race (in handicap mode). They had HUGE participation, and a bunch of new SR-2's, as well. I'm only referring to the 2011 race, not any other data.

@KevDog:
Quote:
Recruiting for the CC was half the fun of the contest and getting people to change over to the chimp name is part of that!

Is there a way to use 50% of zodac,s formula and 50% of Adak's formula ?

Shorten the contest to 5 days, 10 days is too long especially if your losing!

You've had 6 years (going on 7), of "fun". Don't you think it's time to give the other people a turn?

Yes, you use factors in the handicapping.

Five days is fine, but it might be very tough for a team to respond to anything that happens during the race, within that short a time frame. I'm fine with 5 days, if that's what the teams want to try. It's short and snappy!! thumb.gif

If we don't try some new things, we won't find better ways of doing it. Each try will not be a success, but should be a building block to a better CC. That's how I see last year's CC -- a great step forward, but we can do better now, having had that experience.
Edited by Adak - 4/14/12 at 2:54pm
post #125 of 314

I'm beginning to think that - despite your repeated insistance that you accept that we can't use handicaps alone - you don't understand that you're ignoring the other factors. 

 

In a fair handicap system, yes, HWC should have won. However, in a fair system overall, there would be some form of recognition (which would influence the result) of the fact that HWC only produced the 6th highest amount of actual points.

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post #126 of 314
Im gonna try some weighted systems again
ill post some numbers using CC names

(I think my team will probably push to keep it - at least im trying now to save it)

if you guys are patient I'll post something tonight
at least this way I keep busy

yes CSM it getting late to get the teams out - delays mean low turnout for the CC because of messaging
12000 folders? 1200 active? 5people per PM - some block - some ignore - some you have to email /skype/etc

that's why Zodac put a deadline out and so did we..it's past that now
Edited by Xavier Zepherious - 4/14/12 at 3:20pm
post #127 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by zodac View Post

I'm beginning to think that - despite your repeated insistance that you accept that we can't use handicaps alone - you don't understand that you're ignoring the other factors. 

In a fair handicap system, yes, HWC should have won. However, in a fair system overall, there would be some form of recognition (which would influence the result) of the fact that HWC only produced the 6th highest amount of actual points.


1) Every formula for a handicap race, regardless of the type, is a handicap system, and yes, we need to include handicap AND mix in some production values. And when you do that, you have a BETTER handicap system - but it's still a handicap system.

2) We should use a better handicap system - not the same old one, and not a skewed one.

3) Recognition for highest raw point producer would be done via a special trophy for the top (raw) point producing team. Since there are only two teams vying for this, a special trophy rather than a second bracket, would be the way to go..

What you are describing as a "fair" system, is not a handicapped race - that is, in a handicapped race, each team has equal chances to win. If each team gave 100%, the finish should be a dead heat. I believe that's a source of the dissatisfaction with last year's race. People did not understand what a handicapped race, really was. There is NO favoritism because your team is the biggest, or folds the most (raw) points. There is NO special consideration for your larger contribution to FAH. ALL teams are equal.
post #128 of 314
get the date sorted now sozo.gif
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post #129 of 314

Yes, and I'm saying we need a handicap system, merged with a non-handicap system. One which takes the positives from last year (in that it made smaller teams more competitive), and fix the negatives (it was a bit too difficult for bigger teams; let's not forget OCN came third, despite being the 2nd biggest team, so it wasn't an impossible system).

 

Splitting the CC into two separate events - one for handicap and one for overall points is just wrong.

 

Now, as for your "no consideration for a larger contribution", I've got two issues:

 

1) But teams aren't equal. You can't make a system which makes teams with 2mil PPD and teams with 20mil PPD equal. You've got to come up with some other way of normalising their contributions.

 

2) How can we say that larger contributions to FAH mean nothing? That's not favouritism - that's the entire point of the project. And to just ignore that fact makes a mockery of the system. Pande Group realised pretty quickly that points are the best way to get people involved. You want to promote a competition where the points you make on one team are worth less than the same points on another team?


Edited by zodac - 4/14/12 at 4:03pm
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post #130 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by $ilent View Post

get the date sorted now sozo.gif

We can't decide on a final date, until we know what we're doing - and then get together with the webmaster to see what needs to be changed.

I'd keep May 5th open, however. wink.gif
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