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Chimp Challenge 2012?? - Page 15

post #141 of 314
Just a thought, but if the details ever get hammmered out, maybe it should start on the 10th of may when HPCS beta is over?
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post #142 of 314
I say stuff the CC mad.gif
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post #143 of 314

Still plenty of discussions going on. I imagine if nothing is decided soon, the CC might just happen later in the year.

 

We're not gonna pull out of the CC until after a vote though, and that'll only be held if it's clear that the system is unfair.

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post #144 of 314
I would suggest getting hold of the other Captains/ teams like TPU, bit-tech TSC and update them.. or see if they would like to move the date
Fall preferably

I think we could come to solution..but it might take time
just that teams are gonna have to drop some absolute positions and some compromise from everyone will have to come

I might not like some things but in interest will live with it it the system is fair and it actually makes the contest more stable - and long term (for growth and adding teams)
post #145 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by robbo2 View Post

Use the points from last years CC to determine the chimp points for this year. That way the teams that recruit the best through the year, can get their conversion rate up, improve their folding through the year, are rewarded for it. If teams decide to merge, then they will have to consider if that will be a big handicap for them the following year. It's a way that is fair for ALL teams and it's SIMPLE.
This way teams will be racing each other and themselves from last year. So even if you don't win, but show improvement, then have something to celebrate. This is suppose to be a fun competition held in good spirit. It's being dragged through the mud at the moment.

Yeah!! Good for you, Robbo2! You get a BIG GOLD STAR - absolutely right.

Zodac, I'm not going to skim through your posts on three forums, just to show you something everyone already knows. Your points formula is trying to modify the points and it does that - but it's coarse, skews the data to favor large teams, and it completely lacks a handicapping part to it.

It's like asking your dog to purr like a cat, or pushing on a rope. You're expecting those modifying factors in your formula to do something they're not well equipped to do.

I've posted the backbone of a handicap spreadsheet over on the CC forum. The description is not quite right yet, but I'll finish it after I catch some sleep.

Kevdog, yes, the HPCS finishing right in the middle of the normal CC race dates, is awkward, and would introduce a skew into the handicap, because it wasn't there last year. It was not a part of the data I'm using to find the handicapping figures.
Edited by Adak - 4/15/12 at 2:02pm
post #146 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adak View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by robbo2 View Post

Use the points from last years CC to determine the chimp points for this year. That way the teams that recruit the best through the year, can get their conversion rate up, improve their folding through the year, are rewarded for it. If teams decide to merge, then they will have to consider if that will be a big handicap for them the following year. It's a way that is fair for ALL teams and it's SIMPLE.
This way teams will be racing each other and themselves from last year. So even if you don't win, but show improvement, then have something to celebrate. This is suppose to be a fun competition held in good spirit. It's being dragged through the mud at the moment.

Yeah!! Good for you, Robbo2! You get a BIG GOLD STAR - absolutely right.

Zodac, I'm not going to skim through your posts on three forums, just to show you something everyone already knows. Your points formula is trying to modify the points and it does that - but it's coarse, skews the data to favor large teams, and it completely lacks a handicapping part to it.

It's like asking your dog to purr like a cat, or pushing on a rope. You're expecting those modifying factors in your formula to do something they're not well equipped to do.

I've posted the backbone of a handicap spreadsheet over on the CC forum. The description is not quite right yet, but I'll finish it after I catch some sleep.


 


 

Despite it including the entire formula we used last year... which you consider to be a handicapping system...
 

 

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post #147 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by csm725 View Post

Why are you bringing video games into this whole ordeal? There's no relation. Average PPD is not possible. It is heavily skewed towards smaller teams.
This disrespect and lack of realization of how complicated everything is annoys me to no end. Not just directed to $ilent but to everyone in this thread that thinks they know better and that there's a single easy obvious solution that was overlooked.
Why should the small teams win, though? If OCN knocks out only 1.3 mil less PPD than EVGA but has just under 90% conversion, while HWC has half the PPDand what was it 95 percent conversion, why should HWC win? Because they got new SR-2 rigs?

Imagine that you are in a foot race with 10 clones of yourself, absolutely identical copies. That's what a handicap race tries to set up. Big, small, thin, fat, it doesn't matter - all the racers are put on a perfectly even keel (as best we know how). In other words, they're made into virtual clones of each other.

NOW, from THAT perspective, which one of you should win the foot race? Remember, there ARE NO BIG, SMALL FAST OR SLOW clones out there, just now - they're all EVEN. And just for fun, let's say you and the clones race every year. Like the CC, but on foot.

In that situation, you would want the clone that had done some extra training - and was just a bit more alert and quicker, to win the race, right?

That's why HWC should have won the CC last year. Being amongst EQUALS, (which is the whole idea behind a handicap race - to make unequals, equal), they had improved the most. That doesn't mean that they have the best team, or the most points production, or are the most service to the FAH project - those are entirely different things, and NOT a part of handicapping.

A strong team will always be "crippled" in a handicap team race. To take their strength away with some obstacle (distance, time, points, etc.), is the point of handicapping. Not too much, of course, but some. Otherwise there is no sense in having a race - the weaker team will always lose.

Which is why a trophy or award should be given for the strongest folding team in the CC. Maybe not a special bracket, because in reality, there will only be two or three teams with the strength to challenge for it, but some recognition of their tremendous effort, would be appropriate.
Edited by Adak - 4/15/12 at 2:24pm
post #148 of 314

That's what I needed to hear. Confirmation that you're happy that smaller teams actually need to do less work to win.

 

Because improving by 100k PPD actually helps smaller teams more than bigger ones... if it was a closed system where you could only improve PPD from within your team, that'd be fine, but it's not. Folders from other teams want to compete, understand that their points are worth more on smaller teams, and then join them.

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post #149 of 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by zodac View Post



 
Despite it including the entire formula we used last year... which you consider to be a handicapping system...

 

You have to base your handicap, on performance in the CC. Anything else is going to skew the race, one way or another. If you're very clever you might skew the race in a good way, but almost never does that happen. What will happen is you'll "FIX" something, in your formula, and then in the race the input you were counting on is more or less prevalent than you thought it would be - and your handicap goes all sideways.
Quote:
That's what I needed to hear. Confirmation that you're happy that smaller teams actually need to do less work to win.

Because improving by 100k PPD actually helps smaller teams more than bigger ones... if it was a closed system where you could only improve PPD from within your team, that'd be fine, but it's not. Folders from other teams want to compete, understand that their points are worth more on smaller teams, and then join them.

In a handicap race, weaker racers ALWAYS do less work, than the stronger racers to win - that's the definition of a handicap race.

If you're in a foot race with Usain Bolt, and it's handicapped, then by definition, Bolt will have to run faster and farther, or have a time penalty, etc., in order to beat you.

You're looking for some kind of a semi-straight race with a semi-handicap perhaps - which might be an interesting race, but it's not a handicap race.
Edited by Adak - 4/15/12 at 4:39pm
post #150 of 314

And your system will result in the same issues in last year's system.

 

If HWC should have won last year (as you say should have happened if we had a good handicap system), why are you even suggesting more formats?

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