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GIGABYTE Z77X Owners/Discussion/Information/Support Thread and Club (UD5H, UD3H, D3H, and ALL) - Page 282

post #2811 of 6656
Quote:
Originally Posted by victor9847 View Post

sorry, i used the translate of google, doh.gif so i tell you with my own words:
hi! I´m new in this forum, and i have a problem, i bougth the new ga z77x-d3h, with a g860 processor ( the mb supports this) i instal the win7 32bit, and when i used the computer for a few days, the tv had frozen, for solve this i had to reset the computer, this thing happend for 3 times, more later i put the win7 sp1 64bits, i dont have error, but when i saw the temperature of the pch in the et6 i saw 64ºC ohno-smiley02.gif http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...ttulo1rim.png/
i instal the hwmonitor and saw another temperature http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...nttulobco.png/ and always i see a temperature 18º minus than the et6, i see the bios (version f6) and put the same in et6, http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/528/dsc01921z.jpg/ i update the bios to f9 but the temp. was the same, this is miy problem, the tempetarure of my pch, sorry for my level of english, wath is the range of temp work of the pch? and why the et6 and the hwmonitor is diferent, no OC, thanks!!! very good forum!!!!!!!thumb.gifthumb.gif

PCH of 65 degrees C is not an issue. See link:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1239993/official-gigabyte-z77x-owners-discussion-information-support-thread-and-club-ud5h-ud3h-d3h-and-all/2090#post_17490632

Why some programs report one temperature and others report another is anyone's guess. I trust Realtemp for monitoring the temperature of the cpu. I don't think it is anything to worry about though.

As to why your computer is freezing seems to be the more serious issue. I would suggest filling in your system specifications in order for others to be able to help you better. smile.gif
post #2812 of 6656
I just did some more testing. I really don't know how you're doing it Sin0822.

I am on the newest VIA driver I can find, 1.90a.
As far as USB modes in the BIOS go, I just went through and tried them all, Smart Auto, Auto and Enabled and in every mode Windows 7 HP SP1 crashes with a 0xF4 error at some point unless I'm not using any of the VIA ports for my keyboard or GoFlex Desk storage.

In every mode except Enabled, the crash occurs within 10 minutes so it's very predictable. When I have the setting at Enabled the crash is way more random. The last crash I had I literally saw the sound icon get an X and VIA Audio was no longer there, neither were my hubs or hard drives. It just seems as if the VIA ports are "dropping out" if that makes sense, and this ends up BSODing W7.

Could you please tell me your Bios settings for USB and what you have plugged into your VIA ports please?

Thanks.
 
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post #2813 of 6656
Quote:
Originally Posted by barkeater View Post

As to why your computer is freezing seems to be the more serious issue. I would suggest filling in your system specifications in order for others to be able to help you better. smile.gif
thanks for the information biggrin.gif
my computer:
z77x-d3h
g840
club3d gt220
Kingston HyperX DDR3 1600 PC3-12800 4GB
Cooler Master Elite Power 500W
its little because i dont have a lot of money and i prefer buy step to step
post #2814 of 6656
Looks like my sleep issue is resolved. The issue was from not entering sleep to not staying in sleep. Waking was no problem.
Using two methods of tracking the culprits,

1.) Event viewer\ Windows Logs\ Right clicking on System & choosing "Filter Current Log, then scrolling the Event Sources box to Power-troubleshooter and chosing OK.
2.) In an opened as admistrator command prompt entering, powercfg -lastwake.

My Logitech K350 wireless keyboard would not allow it to enter sleep.
After disabling it from waking the computer from sleep in device manager I could then enter sleep but it would wake at random.

Next I found a USB Root Hub when I ran the powercfg -lastwake command. I have 5 in my device managers list. I disabled their option for allowing the computer to turn them off to save power. What the heck they were going to be in sleep anyways.

Next in the event viewer filter I found my on-board Intel NIC to be waking it. There are two options in the NIC's properties under power saver options, 1.) Respond to ARP requests and 2. Respond to NS requests without waking the system were both unchecked. After selecting them I have not had any unwanted wakes from sleep since.

Whew!
    
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post #2815 of 6656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazlonius View Post

2) Will I be able to buy an expansion card to place on the UD5H with thunderbolt ports or does it need a chip on the mainboard?

This is a question I too would like to see an answer. Can the PCI express 3 bandwidth be used by future "Thunderbolt expansion cards"?
Especially if one is using the integrated graphics only, or just one discrete GPU card...
As for TB, it looks like USB when it first came out: people were asking themselves "will I need it?" and now it USB all over the mobos.
post #2816 of 6656
Thanks for the time you took for writing such a long post, Sin. I hope I won't be deemed ungrateful if I still reply to it. Let me start from the end: the thread is evolving and slowly some of the issue are being exposed and, hopefully, solved.

PCI incompatibility seems a common source of problems. I ask, is this related to the 100.10 MHz fix? If it is (or at least could be) is (one of) the clock(s) of these boards sligtly off in hardware and at GB they are trying to place a patch in the BIOS? I mean is it possible to fix a problem of this kind in the bios or a patch here could cause a PCI instability there?

USB3 seems another (trans-manufacturer) plague. I am confident these problem will be ironed out by future releases of the drivers. Am I too optimistic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin0822 View Post

No GB and ASUS currently use the same supplier, but that has little to nothing to do with the need for extra capacitors. If you look inside the socket there are high frequency capacitors in there, the point is the put them as close to the CPU as possible, so you start inside the socket and then to the back, however there is an optimum amount to balance out everything. Saying that capacitors are missing in the back must have been written by a new ASUS hire who has no knowledge of electrical engineering, probably some media asus hired recently, as that is what they have started to do(take people who used to review motherboards and quit, and offer them jobs in marketing).

Yep, that's the point: they're there to be very close to the cpu. Since there is a limited amount of real estate either they're there or they are not there at all.
Quote:
GB and other manufacturers do their best to minimize variation in the PCB so they can use the same PCB for two or more boards. That means that some of the layout considerations in terms of the MLCCs (the ceramic capacitors) are different board to board.

Ok, so they draw tracks and pads and leave them empty if the caps are not needed. I can understand that.
As a matter of fact, in your latest review of the UP5, I can see a very similar if not the same layout under the socket. But here's why I was skeptical of the 'explanations' given so far of why the UD5H has no MLCC under there (ok, only one):

The reasoning I could read on webpages (and forums) thus far were like:
1) our superior design (speedy VRM) and thicker copper (low ohmic losses) make those MLCC unnecessary (-->authority principle: I tell you it is so, you better believe me)
2)those capacitors are simply not needed (which is almost on the same line as above, since it is based on the assumption that GB engineers couldn't have made a mistake)

Please note: I am not stating that the above statements are not true, only that they are not really explanations and that is why FUD can still propagate. If I were in Gigabyte I wouldn't have issued such a short statement, but I would have produced a more consistent documentation as to why there is no need for caps under the UD5H. They wouldn't have divulged any secret, I believe: competitors have the resources and ability to do reverse engineering.

As you wrote:
Quote:
There are many reasons that capacitor count varies on different boards, that is because almost all boards vary in what MOSFETs, Inductors, capacitors, as well as settings and transient controls they use.

This is logical, but still not 'proof'. I hope you see my point: IMBO, GB shouldn't have fought FUD (rock) with faith (scissors).
More so, by stating that the MLCC are not there because they use a state of the art VRM and thicker copper rises the question: "so why did you have to put them under the UP5 [*]? Shouldn't that be a speedy VRM too? Shouldn't the ohmic losses be low there, too?"

As you can see, I am pointing out an error in communication, more or less like Asrock's bent board picture. Gigabyte should have used paper :-) to fight rock, ...I mean FUD. I'd really love to see the schematics of the relevant power stages of the ud5h and the up5. That would show why the newest state of the art design needs those capacitor in that same exact position of the PCB, and why the UD5H does not.
Do you think such an information could be accessed?
Quote:
I treat all of you equally, no one differently, however since i made this thread I have seen a HUGE influx of new users

The board looks great and it's a rip-off for the money. I have an empty case waiting right next to me, but I am afraid I could buy a board that won't be stable if I try to reduce the voltage on the CPU to save power between mild overclockings (the object of my first post) or would refuse to go to sleep. I have an environmental friendly attitude, you see, but the "buy it, try it out and see for yourself" suggestion is a bit too much for my tight budget.

If someone with the UD5H has managed to read so far, I would really appreciate if you could experiment how much you can lower the CPU voltage (possibly of an Ivy bridge processor, a 3570K would be ideal) with stock multiplier and still have the system stable. Something on the line of http://www.anandtech.com/show/5763/undervolting-and-overclocking-on-ivy-bridge
Quote:
I just want to let people know issues reported in this thread doesn't mean everyone will have them.

Right, but don't you think this board (or this generation of boards - from other manufacturers too) are having a hard time getting rock stable?

[*] By looking at the video you posted on youtube I believe I have spotted several capacitors under the cpu socket of the UP5. Am I mistaken? Picture quality is what it is, and now the video is no longer online.
Edited by Sredni Vashtar - 7/23/12 at 3:55pm
post #2817 of 6656
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arrow0309 View Post

Removed rolleyes.gif
I made a new one lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcTnvnWfF0g&feature=youtu.be

Sorry, the other was 30mins, this is 20 and more to the point, and i got a whiteboard, i figured id start teaching people how the boards work. Towards the end you'll see the white board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoprimal View Post

I just did some more testing. I really don't know how you're doing it Sin0822.
I am on the newest VIA driver I can find, 1.90a.
As far as USB modes in the BIOS go, I just went through and tried them all, Smart Auto, Auto and Enabled and in every mode Windows 7 HP SP1 crashes with a 0xF4 error at some point unless I'm not using any of the VIA ports for my keyboard or GoFlex Desk storage.
In every mode except Enabled, the crash occurs within 10 minutes so it's very predictable. When I have the setting at Enabled the crash is way more random. The last crash I had I literally saw the sound icon get an X and VIA Audio was no longer there, neither were my hubs or hard drives. It just seems as if the VIA ports are "dropping out" if that makes sense, and this ends up BSODing W7.
Could you please tell me your Bios settings for USB and what you have plugged into your VIA ports please?
Thanks.

Hey i need to correct you on something, your board doesn't use a VIA HUB, it uses a 4-port VIA controller. The UD5H and the G1.Sniper 3 both use the HUBs, however the UD3H uses a 4-port controller. The smart auto/auto thing has nothing to do with it. There is no driver for the hub even.

Also the remaining issues with BSOD and odd freezing have to do with PCI devices or 1394A devices which are not fully compatible, this is currently being investigated by GB and is a issue,however since not all PCI devices will cause it, only some sound cards like Audigy 2ZS and Xonar, as well as a audio production device, they are trying to find a fix for it.

IMO you shoudl contact GTS, perhaps your controller is messed up or defective. BTW it is a controller Not a HUB on the UD3H. They can reproduce it and say if they have the same issue on your side.

My VIA ports have gone through all my USB devices, from a bunch fo gaming keyboards, K8100 from GB, thermaltakes G-Unit, random dell keyboard, to gaming mice like the GB M8000X and wireless microsoft mouse, as well as my phone, my webcam, an external SSD drive, my flashcard reader, and even my printer. None of them caused me to BSOD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sredni Vashtar View Post

This is a question I too would like to see an answer. Can the PCI express 3 bandwidth be used by future "Thunderbolt expansion cards"?
Especially if one is using the integrated graphics only, or just one discrete GPU card...
As for TB, it looks like USB when it first came out: people were asking themselves "will I need it?" and now it USB all over the mobos.
Well currently the thunderbolt controllers don't use PCi-E gen3 lanes, because those only come from the CPU's PCi-E controller, and it only has 16 lanes, no one would buy a board in which their GPU only got 12x lanes lol. So manufacturers use the PCI-E 2.0 lanes from the Z77 PCH, the PCh has 8 PCi-E 2.0 lanes, and 4 of them are provided to the TB controller. However If there ever was a card, then you would have to plug it into the last slot(4X), and on the UD5h that would be PCi-E 3.0 if your CPu is PCi-E 3.0, and on the UD3H it woudl always be 2.0 b/c the last slots 4x comes from the PCH not the CPU.

Thunderbolt expansion cards would be expensive, for instance on the Up5, the thunderbolt uses this many ICs for these purposes:
The controller itself has its own BIOS ROM
It also has a single phase VRM, however the VRM has two chokes and 4-5 MOSFETs as well as a bunch of caps.
There is a HDMI switch to switch HDMI signals into the controller
Then you have a 4-bit bus switch to deal with high bandwidth data switching and hot docking of TB devices.
For the two port all of the following are in pairs because you need one per port.
There are a total of two Display Port 2:1 multiplexers which take the DP output from the PCH and take it to the TB controller/ports
There are a total of two 3.3v to 18v multiplexers to provide high voltage to the cord which needs to be powered.

That is a lot of hardware, to put on a small card. I honestly think manufacturers are a bit scared about how people will take to TB. That is why you only see a few boards with it to test the waters.
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post #2818 of 6656
Never mind.
post #2819 of 6656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin0822 View Post

I made a new one lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcTnvnWfF0g&feature=youtu.be
Sorry, the other was 30mins, this is 20 and more to the point, and i got a whiteboard, i figured id start teaching people how the boards work. Towards the end you'll see the white board.
Hey i need to correct you on something, your board doesn't use a VIA HUB, it uses a 4-port VIA controller. The UD5H and the G1.Sniper 3 both use the HUBs, however the UD3H uses a 4-port controller. The smart auto/auto thing has nothing to do with it. There is no driver for the hub even.
Also the remaining issues with BSOD and odd freezing have to do with PCI devices or 1394A devices which are not fully compatible, this is currently being investigated by GB and is a issue,however since not all PCI devices will cause it, only some sound cards like Audigy 2ZS and Xonar, as well as a audio production device, they are trying to find a fix for it.
IMO you shoudl contact GTS, perhaps your controller is messed up or defective. BTW it is a controller Not a HUB on the UD3H. They can reproduce it and say if they have the same issue on your side.
My VIA ports have gone through all my USB devices, from a bunch fo gaming keyboards, K8100 from GB, thermaltakes G-Unit, random dell keyboard, to gaming mice like the GB M8000X and wireless microsoft mouse, as well as my phone, my webcam, an external SSD drive, my flashcard reader, and even my printer. None of them caused me to BSOD.

I think you misunderstood me there. I wasn't referring to the VIA ports as a hub, I was saying that the only thing I have attached to the VIA port that actually works are MY external USB 2.0 hubs. Any other device I put on any of them lead up to a BSOD, eventually. I have no other devices in my PC at the moment except for my video card and the same things happen when I remove it and just use onboard so I know that it isn't any sort of internal conflict from the slots. If I do any sort of RMA I'm just going to get something else at this point. I don't trust that they're going to fix anything because I've read about other people doing RMAs and getting the same board back. It's a great board in theory but there's something very wrong with the actual product it seems and now I'm wondering if that's why it's going for so much cheaper than the competition.
 
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post #2820 of 6656
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sredni Vashtar View Post

Thanks for the time you took Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
for writing such a long post, Sin. I hope I won't be deemed ungrateful if I still reply to it. Let me start from the end: the thread is evolving and slowly some of the issue are being exposed and, hopefully, solved.
PCI incompatibility seems a common source of problems. I ask, is this related to the 100.10 MHz fix? If it is (or at least could be) is (one of) the clock(s) of these boards sligtly off in hardware and at GB they are trying to place a patch in the BIOS? I mean is it possible to fix a problem of this kind in the bios or a patch here could cause a PCI instability there?
USB3 seems another (trans-manufacturer) plague. I am confident these problem will be ironed out by future releases of the drivers. Am I too optimistic?
Yep, that's the point: they're there to be very close to the cpu. Since there is a limited amount of real estate either they're there or they are not there at all.
Ok, so they draw tracks and pads and leave them empty if the caps are not needed. I can understand that.
As a matter of fact, in your latest review of the UP5, I can see a very similar if not the same layout under the socket. But here's why I was skeptical of the 'explanations' given so far of why the UD5H has no MLCC under there (ok, only one):
The reasoning I could read on webpages (and forums) thus far were like:
1) our superior design (speedy VRM) and thicker copper (low ohmic losses) make those MLCC unnecessary (-->authority principle: I tell you it is so, you better believe me)
2)those capacitors are simply not needed (which is almost on the same line as above, since it is based on the assumption that GB engineers couldn't have made a mistake)
Please note: I am not stating that the above statements are not true, only that they are not really explanations and that is why FUD can still propagate. If I were in Gigabyte I wouldn't have issued such a short statement, but I would have produced a more consistent documentation as to why there is no need for caps under the UD5H. They wouldn't have divulged any secret, I believe: competitors have the resources and ability to do reverse engineering.
As you wrote:
This is logical, but still not 'proof'. I hope you see my point: IMBO, GB shouldn't have fought FUD (rock) with faith (scissors).
More so, by stating that the MLCC are not there because they use a state of the art VRM and thicker copper rises the question: "so why did you have to put them under the UP5 [*]? Shouldn't that be a speedy VRM too? Shouldn't the ohmic losses be low there, too?"
As you can see, I am pointing out an error in communication, more or less like Asrock's bent board picture. Gigabyte should have used paper :-) to fight rock, ...I mean FUD. I'd really love to see the schematics of the relevant power stages of the ud5h and the up5. That would show why the newest state of the art design needs those capacitor in that same exact position of the PCB, and why the UD5H does not.
Do you think such an information could be accessed?
The board looks great and it's a rip-off for the money. I have an empty case waiting right next to me, but I am afraid I could buy a board that won't be stable if I try to reduce the voltage on the CPU to save power between mild overclockings (the object of my first post) or would refuse to go to sleep. I have an environmental friendly attitude, you see, but the "buy it, try it out and see for yourself" suggestion is a bit too much for my tight budget.
If someone with the UD5H has managed to read so far, I would really appreciate if you could experiment how much you can lower the CPU voltage (possibly of an Ivy bridge processor, a 3570K would be ideal) with stock multiplier and still have the system stable. Something on the line of http://www.anandtech.com/show/5763/undervolting-and-overclocking-on-ivy-bridge
Right, but don't you think this board (or this generation of boards - from other manufacturers too) are having a hard time getting rock stable?
[*] By looking at the video you posted on youtube I believe I have spotted several capacitors under the cpu socket of the UP5. Am I mistaken? Picture quality is what it is, and now the video is no longer online
.

Those capacitors never change position. They are always located under the motherboard after you have filled them up above the board inside the socket, then you go on the back and fill them up.
THere are many boards which don't use all the capacitor banks filled up. If you went into a VRm and replaced all the capacitors used with capacitors with lower ESR for instance, do you know what would happen? The ripple would increase even though lower ESR dictates lower ripple. Do you know why? Because the chokes/inductors and capacitors have a symbiotic relationship, and you only use what is needed and calculated to fit. I bet if you added MLCC into the slots where you can solder them, the VRm wouldn't work, i bet you it would **** up the VRm and you would notice it in the voltage regulation.

I really have no idea why you are so set on arguing it, you must really not understand, the attack is bull****, no where is it written how GIGABYTE should make their motherboards, infact they are the sole Tier 1 motherboard manufacturer who still has its own factories, they even spend a premium and are one of the only manufacturers who has their top boards made in TW and not in China. Maybe you didn't know that.

Where do you see people complaining about BSODs? No where will you see anything like that unless they user is using a PCi device or like the guy a few posts above has an issue with a USb device.

I think GIGABYTE doesn't care about the attack that much because it was sent out to their vendors and not the media, ASUS however got a site or two to write an article about it, however that is only part of the document, ASUS wrote like a presentation comparing their boards to GIGABYTE to send to vendors like newegg. ASUS is pulling out all the tricks, for instance did you knwo t-toplogy is part of intel design spec? Not some asus creation. ASUS going to all time lows is a new thing.

here are possibilities why ASUS did what they did, that is if you are interested and not trolling, the latter seems more possible at this point.

Did you know that ASUS doesn't make their own motherboards? Earlier this year pegatron, who owns ASRock made the majority of ASUS motherboards, however apple since moved some of its contracts to pegatron, and asus sold its 30% stake in pegatron, and now needs ECS or foxconn to manufacturer their boards.

If you didn't notice recently ASUS just dropped their prices on their major Z77 models down to exactly match GIGABYTE's prices. Do you know what that means? It means ASUS couldn't sell any boards at their prices, and major retailers like newegg and others stopped purchasing them, on top of that ASUS had 1 million Z68 boards in backstock at Z77 launch.

They had to do two things, first they lowered their prices to normal levels, which GB was already at.
Then they had to get vendors to question GIGABYTE.

However here is the deal, when is the last time you ever saw GIGABYTE pull crap like this? Did you ever think they are at a point where they are focusing on their own product development and improving their quality? Did you know for the first time in a year and a half a ROG board doesn't have the best VRM quality for a series? The first time that ASUS didn't use updated components on the extreme version in comparison to the gene? Did you see GIGABYTE ever promote intel technology as if they discovered it?

When i was in TW, GB's engineers told me, listen we work on these board to improve OC compatibility, however we implement technologies, however as you requested we will not advertise them, because we prefer to beat our competitor not with marketing but with real performance. That is one reason GB's marketing isn't so technical, because they go at things differently and i really respect that. ASUS doesn't have good morals as a company they want to get to the top even if their product isn't the best, and there are many ways to do that. ASRock is taking lessons from asus and it is sad, like hiding D-PAK MOSFETs under huge heatsinks on a $150 MB, $150 MB don't usually have heatsinks like that, but I guess the heatsinks are cheaper than the MOSFETs. lol. GIGABYTE could easily point out how over inflated ASUS's pricing is, or how asus doesn't use 2oz copper PCB.

What do you want GB to say? You want GB to show you schematics of their motherboards? you are kidding yourself? When is the last time you ever saw a trace diagram of a motherboard? never? The way manufacturers draw their traces and work the PCB is very secret. You will get no response out of GB b/c there is no problem.

However i think you should get the ASUS board, because you will always doubt the GB board no matter what. ASUS has gotten into your brain, and laid its eggs. lol.

i feel like I just seriously wasted 10 minutes of my life trying to figure out how to heck to respond to something i have gone over with you over and over. What bugs me is that i feel like you just show up once a week to post in here and ask about this, that is like what Raja does.
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X99 Main Rig
(10 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel 5960X Extreme Edition @ 4.5GHz Always Changing VisonTek R9 290 G.Skill Ripjaws 4 16GB (4x4GB) DDR4 @ 3200MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Samsung 128GB M.2 PCI-E 4x SSD Apotop 256GB SSD 1.82TB NAS Noctua NH-D15 with both fans 
OSPower
Win7 Pro Enermax 1000W 
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