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Bulldozer - futureproof...or not? - Page 2

Poll Results: What CPU will prove more efficient in the years to come?

 
  • 28% (12)
    AMD FX-8120 8 Core Processor
  • 57% (24)
    Intel i5-2500k 4 Core Processor
  • 14% (6)
    Neither
42 Total Votes  
post #11 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

What are you basing that on? There are plenty of very parallel-able applications out there. What are you classifying as " less than stellar multi-threaded coding"?

Im classifying most software/games and applications. with a few exceptions, most software still doesn't make effective use of 4 cores, nevermind 8. Sure there are lots of apps, but how many of them are viable? Most heavily multithreaded apps are benchmarking tools/transcoding and multimedia apps am i right? well thats not my cup of tea. 2 years from now almost certainly every game and software introduced will support more cores than now. Hence why i wouldn't want to make assumptions based on todays lack of use of multithreaded coding...On paper, the 8120 should be almost 2x faster than my 2500k. now obviously, that isn't the case as it is often slower. But when 8 cores are effectively used will BD have the processing power to outperform the i5-2500k....simply put, is BD ahead of its time or is it garbage
post #12 of 24
once windows and other programs are able to use the new instruction sets that bulldozer and above have, i think things will start to get better for bulldozer. my FX4100 does amazing in ubuntu, and not so much in windows.
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post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8800GT View Post

Im classifying most software/games and applications. with a few exceptions, most software still doesn't make effective use of 4 cores, nevermind 8. Sure there are lots of apps, but how many of them are viable? Most heavily multithreaded apps are benchmarking tools/transcoding and multimedia apps am i right? well thats not my cup of tea. 2 years from now almost certainly every game and software introduced will support more cores than now. Hence why i wouldn't want to make assumptions based on todays lack of use of multithreaded coding...On paper, the 8120 should be almost 2x faster than my 2500k. now obviously, that isn't the case as it is often slower. But when 8 cores are effectively used will BD have the processing power to outperform the i5-2500k....simply put, is BD ahead of its time or is it garbage

Consider this also. BD is not your traditional 8 core CPU. When AMD label it by 8 core what they really are saying is 8 integer cores/clusters.

In tradition a core has 1 integer core, 1 decoder, 1 FPU, and 1 dedicated L1 + L2 cache. In Bulldozer, 2 integer cores share everything.

amd_bulldozer_scheme.jpg

In general purpose computation, FPU matter the most. So even though FX-8120 is capable of running 2 threads at the same time, FPU and associated resources are constantly switching between core 1 and core 2. This design is almost the same as Intel Hyperthreading (Intel Hyperthreading only has extra pipelines, not even integer core). AMD went with this design to save die space (lower the production cost), keep thermal envelope in check, and in preparation for HSA (completely remove FPU in CPU and rely on GPU instead). Which is why you see some people calling BD a quad core CPU at most (I am one of those people).

Just so you know, 95% of the game only use 1 to 2 threads. The movement to 3+ more threads is very slow because it cost game developers more money to take advantage of extra threads (if said game can take advantage in the first place).
Edited by trumpet-205 - 4/8/12 at 1:18pm
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post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumpet-205 View Post

Consider this also. BD is not your traditional 8 core CPU. When AMD label it by 8 core what they really are saying is 8 integer cores/clusters.
In tradition a core has 1 integer core, 1 decoder, 1 FPU, and 1 dedicated L1 + L2 cache. In Bulldozer, 2 integer cores share everything.
amd_bulldozer_scheme.jpg
In general purpose computation, FPU matter the most. So even though FX-8120 is capable of running 2 threads at the same time, FPU and associated resources are constantly switching between core 1 and core 2. This design is almost the same as Intel Hyperthreading (Intel Hyperthreading only has extra pipeline, not even integer core). AMD went with this design to save die space (lower the production cost), keep thermal envelope in check, and in preparation for HSA (completely remove FPU in CPU and rely on GPU instead). Which is why you see some people calling BD a quad core CPU at most (I am one of those people).
Just so you know, 95% of the game only use 1 to 2 threads. The movement to 3+ more threads is very slow because it cost game developers more money to take advantage of extra thread (if said game can take advantage in the first place).

^^ i'm with you on this.
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post #15 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumpet-205 View Post

Consider this also. BD is not your traditional 8 core CPU. When AMD label it by 8 core what they really are saying is 8 integer cores/clusters.
In tradition a core has 1 integer core, 1 decoder, 1 FPU, and 1 dedicated L1 + L2 cache. In Bulldozer, 2 integer cores share everything.
amd_bulldozer_scheme.jpg
In general purpose computation, FPU matter the most. So even though FX-8120 is capable of running 2 threads at the same time, FPU and associated resources are constantly switching between core 1 and core 2. This design is almost the same as Intel Hyperthreading (Intel Hyperthreading only has extra pipelines, not even integer core). AMD went with this design to save die space (lower the production cost), keep thermal envelope in check, and in preparation for HSA (completely remove FPU in CPU and rely on GPU instead). Which is why you see some people calling BD a quad core CPU at most (I am one of those people).
Just so you know, 95% of the game only use 1 to 2 threads. The movement to 3+ more threads is very slow because it cost game developers more money to take advantage of extra threads (if said game can take advantage in the first place).

I agree with what you said. I knew that the cores were different and that instead of being considered an 8 core, it was more of a 4 core with 4 support cores...bad anology i know. So in essence, you're getting more like a 4 core cpu with hyper-threading, in which uses its own logical cores but pulls resources from the same fpu? Seems to me Bulldozers performance will only get worse as time goes on
post #16 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8800GT View Post

Im classifying most software/games and applications. with a few exceptions, most software still doesn't make effective use of 4 cores, nevermind 8. Sure there are lots of apps, but how many of them are viable? Most heavily multithreaded apps are benchmarking tools/transcoding and multimedia apps am i right? well thats not my cup of tea. 2 years from now almost certainly every game and software introduced will support more cores than now. Hence why i wouldn't want to make assumptions based on todays lack of use of multithreaded coding...On paper, the 8120 should be almost 2x faster than my 2500k. now obviously, that isn't the case as it is often slower. But when 8 cores are effectively used will BD have the processing power to outperform the i5-2500k....simply put, is BD ahead of its time or is it garbage
Not quite... not all application can be made parallel (Amdahl's law). Multithreading has been mainstream for 5+ years and there is still only limited threading. This will not change in the next 5 years. Games (especially FPS) are inherently not very parallel since most environmental interacts require real-time feed back based on player actions.

The 8120 is NOT faster than a 2500K on paper or in reality... where is that from?

8 cores can be effectively used.... and it can only sometimes beat a 2500k.
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post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajslay View Post

once windows and other programs are able to use the new instruction sets that bulldozer and above have, i think things will start to get better for bulldozer. my FX4100 does amazing in ubuntu, and not so much in windows.

and when that time comes, there will be new processors that are better than BD
post #18 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostrider85 View Post

and when that time comes, there will be new processors that are better than BD

well yeah, pile driver for example. but, not everyone upgrades to new processors all the time.

i upgrade my processor every 6 months. but i know people that keep a build for years.
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post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Not quite... not all application can be made parallel (Amdahl's law). Multithreading has been mainstream for 5+ years and there is still only limited threading. This will not change in the next 5 years. Games (especially FPS) are inherently not very parallel since most environmental interacts require real-time feed back based on player actions.
The 8120 is NOT faster than a 2500K on paper or in reality... where is that from?
8 cores can be effectively used.... and it can only sometimes beat a 2500k.

What was that? it sometimes beats a 2500k? I'm pretty sure that's faster (in said programs)

Your statement contradicts itself. At least the part about it's "speed" the other part is fine tongue.gif
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post #20 of 24
I would definitely stick with 2500k if I were you.

I'm just hoping Piledriver is decent. If they can increase IPC past Phenom 2 levels or close to first gen I7 levels that's a pretty awesome 8 core chip. I'd love to have an AMD rig again so maybe they won't dissapoint next round.
    
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