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z77 mATX with PCIE 3.0 PLX PXE chip? - Page 3

post #21 of 45
yea man.

BTW you know if you touch a birds nest or eggs it will leave them to die right?
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post #22 of 45
Thread Starter 
No didn't touch. Just took a picture with my camera And left it alone. Hopefully i won't cause the momma to leave.
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post #23 of 45
Not dissing Vega or anything but I err on the side of caution with his build threads. He had previously released an article complaining about the bandwidth definiciency of AMD's crossfire finger solution acting as a x1 lane for througput for communication, and came up with "fancy" charts to support his data saying how Nvidias mutli connection sli fingers are better than the single fingers for crossfire, in quad and tri crossfire scenarios. I used his exact chart 5 months back when I defended Nvidia for their choice of multi connections.


Another extreme user with a quad 6970 and multi 1600p screen setup proved me wrong... oh so wrong... and said Vega is full of it.

Since then I don't trust Vega as much.

I say you wait until the launch of the 690 or 7990 and see what users think. Don't trust JUST Vega (I'm sure you aren't just trusting him), AFAIK he has no affiliation to any tech site, and even as an unbiased 3rd party source, his data could be questionable. He is a user with a lot of knowledge and money for the expense for high end setup. Right now he is setting up a fresnel lens setup just for the FW900 in Surround/Eyefinity. The man knows his stuff, I don't doubt that, but his data may not always be correct.

That's not saying that all technology sites are correct on the other hand. comparing the 5850 vs 460 sli two years back saw clashing data between HardOCP vs such sites as TPU or Anand. Turns out Hard's drivers were older and did not match data posted by other sites on the matter, and they later rectified the issue August of 2010 (If I recall).

Take his data with a heaping pile of salt. We are going by theory here that the bandwidth demanded by a single 680 will surpass demand by pci-e 2.0 x8. And the way data transfer is done (as seen in the wiki article) from 2.0 to 3.0 is different, it is after all an evolution.
Quote:
New features for the PCIe 3.0 specification include a number of optimizations for enhanced signaling and data integrity, including transmitter and receiver equalization, PLL improvements, clock data recovery, and channel enhancements for currently supported topologies.[20]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCI-SIG FAQ 
PCIe 2.x 5.0GT/s 4Gbps ~500MB/s ~16GB/s
PCIe 3.0 8.0GT/s 8Gbps ~1GB/s ~32GB/s

...PCIe 3.0 is the next evolution of the ubiquitous and general-purpose PCI Express I/O standard. At 8GT/s bit rate, the interconnect performance bandwidth is doubled over PCIe 2.0, while preserving compatibility with software and mechanical interfaces. The key requirement for evolving the PCIe architecture is to continue to provide performance scaling consistent with bandwidth demand from leading applications...

http://www.pcisig.com/news_room/faqs/pcie3.0_faq/

I would still say wait, and go for an mATX setup. If when it releases (690 and I presume the Maximus V or the Sniper M2) and it is shown with sites that you do indeed need a plx replicator chip, you might be short changed and I feel sorry for you as I do like mATX setups.

To clarify: I don't say for one second I am right. I could very well be extremely wrong and full of crap. Often times I am. My goal here is to help you justify purchasing these gpus come release and to make sure they are utilized. I am 100% on your side BHK, so don't take my posts in any offensive way, for I did not intend for them to be such. I'm here to learn myself and to help you get your questions answered. If you post a piece of information that goes contrary to all this hypothetical bs I'm pulling right now, and proves that indeed 680's are crushed by the lack of throughput by x8 2.0 then I will be the first one to agree with you and change my views.


BAM: OCN THREAD questioning Vega. That discusses bandwidth, not so much in the amount of transfer from a 680's compute, but bus limitations and memory demand of a mutli screen setup.

Vega's threads in question:

http://www.overclock.net/t/903852/3x-30-portrait-6970-cf-eyefinity-vs-580-sli-surround-showdown

odd... I can't seem to find the EVGA thread from Jan '11 by Vega anymore headscratch.gif


In the end of the day:


You said you had more links. Could you please post them. I want to be clear about this whole bandwidth debacle, that way I can give people proper and not misguided advice for multi gpu setups. This is to clarify any personal ignorance of mine. OP if you could do that, I would be grateful. Thanks.

Man, I spent a good twenty minutes looking for that OCN thread from Levesque, and another 15 hunting for Vega's old threads. 35 minutes spent looking for links. I should spend more time on other things lol.


Edit once more:

Interesting.. simply googling PLX brings up quite a bit of information. Not all related to your question though, but very informative. Tell me OP, have you been into computers long, or were you just always inquisitive. When I first started not too long ago, I was ignorant as hell. Most people were. I didn't know (and still don't know) even the top layers of computer technology. I'm surprised seeing a new members asking such questions. Do you frequent other forums and you just recently joined OCN? I'm impressed by certain new members who have knowledge, often times they having prior experience with this technology. Such users make me not just classify new users as total dolts, but think that yes the general majority is ignorant, but there are others who are not.
Links about PLX technology (Click to show)
Edited by Spykerv - 4/12/12 at 1:24am
     
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post #24 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin0822 View Post

yea man.
BTW you know if you touch a birds nest or eggs it will leave them to die right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9-iSl_eg5U&feature=plcp&context=C45bda81VDvjVQa1PpcFPxswKTbEBHpXFmwkUbKmZtcc-EJ6T_j80%3D

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=birds%20nest%20misconception&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academicjournals.org%2Fsre%2Fpdf%2Fpdf2009%2FDec%2FCardak.pdf&ei=pI6GT7mUIs_imAWkhsysBw&usg=AFQjCNH-04CAmXsqYECLXC4bxCZMVHc8pQ

common misconception
Quote:
With regard to the interaction between birds and people, many students had misconceptions, such as if a person touches the nest of a bird, birds will never come back to that nest (Fries-Gaiter, 2009)

Edited by Spykerv - 4/12/12 at 1:19am
     
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post #25 of 45
Thread Starter 
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5458/the-radeon-hd-7970-reprise-pcie-bandwidth-overclocking-and-msaa

This will show some information for the 7970, which I consider same or worse for the 680's. important to look at the graph with the performance between PCIE 3.0 4x and 8x, as that will show pcie 2.0 8x vs 16x performance.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1233341/vc-no-pci-express-3-0-support-for-gtx-680

QQ thread about PCIE 3.0 not being supported when the 680 gtx first came out for people that were using multiple GPUs

And I am just a random enthusiast trying to learn as much as I can. almost too much out there...
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post #26 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spykerv View Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9-iSl_eg5U&feature=plcp&context=C45bda81VDvjVQa1PpcFPxswKTbEBHpXFmwkUbKmZtcc-EJ6T_j80%3D
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=birds%20nest%20misconception&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.academicjournals.org%2Fsre%2Fpdf%2Fpdf2009%2FDec%2FCardak.pdf&ei=pI6GT7mUIs_imAWkhsysBw&usg=AFQjCNH-04CAmXsqYECLXC4bxCZMVHc8pQ
common misconception
Quote:
With regard to the interaction between birds and people, many students had misconceptions, such as if a person touches the nest of a bird, birds will never come back to that nest (Fries-Gaiter, 2009)

IDk i had a bird nest in my front porch and i touched it and the mother never came back, i didn't even move it. Maybe it depends on the bird species.

NVIDIAs GPUs more often require more bandwidth, also VEGAs test are at extremely high resolutions. You have to understand he has nothing to gain from saying one way or another, many of these sites have a lot to gain or lose.
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post #27 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin0822 View Post

IDk i had a bird nest in my front porch and i touched it and the mother never came back, i didn't even move it. Maybe it depends on the bird species.
NVIDIAs GPUs more often require more bandwidth, also VEGAs test are at extremely high resolutions. You have to understand he has nothing to gain from saying one way or another, many of these sites have a lot to gain or lose.

All I'm saying is the man had driver errors (in this Q1 analysis/benchmark he released, especially that EVGA thread) he clearly stated that on the amd tri and quad solutions, x58 and p67, could in fact not boot certain games, or have massive driver errors. I stuck by said analysis, and look what happened to me. Another user, with you guessed it, proof of ownership of an Eyefinity setup with 2560 x 1600 monitors, doing exactly what Vega said wasn't possible. As I said, maybe Vegas drivers were premature at the time, because those pictures on that thread I linked are 100% real.

Hey, what happened to your DC to DC (VRM) power conversion FAQ. I do not buy for even one second that the whole of OCN knows everything there is to know about power circuitry. I saw a budget build the other day running a 3+1 with an x6, which is needless to say bound for demise any day, so I know not everyone knows about this. What makes me sad is I was trying to get that FAQ stickied, and we had such good steam going the first few days!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhk1004 View Post

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5458/the-radeon-hd-7970-reprise-pcie-bandwidth-overclocking-and-msaa
This will show some information for the 7970, which I consider same or worse for the 680's. important to look at the graph with the performance between PCIE 3.0 4x and 8x, as that will show pcie 2.0 8x vs 16x performance.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1233341/vc-no-pci-express-3-0-support-for-gtx-680
QQ thread about PCIE 3.0 not being supported when the 680 gtx first came out for people that were using multiple GPUs
And I am just a random enthusiast trying to learn as much as I can. almost too much out there...


Whoa thank you! I even looked at that thread when Anand released it in early Feb/Late Jan. Would you look at that, mATX owners on mainstream really are screwed. You do indeed need the bandwidth. There is a noticeable decrease in performance that as Sin said, will only increase with Nvidia cards over AMD. I'm surprised after seeing very slight performance loss in 6970 (VLIW5) at x8 2.0, but move to GNC and the 7970, and we really need the bandwidth. Tragic.

Well the silliest advice I could give you right now is that your desires are not in any way mainstream and you should go for the enthusiast board, even though you said you did not want to deal with x79s higher TDP.

Best of luck with whatever you do decide OP. I guess in your situation what I would do is get a Rampage Gene and stick to x79.


All this is their z77 preview that I totally did not get time to read this past week:
Quote:
We still have 16 PCIe lanes from the CPU, but with the new chipset these are fully and officially rated at PCIe 3.0 speeds if you have the GPUs to take advantage of this feature. This becomes more apparent in multi-GPU setups, where the 16 lanes are split between the slots. Typically, this will be in the form of x16 for single card, x8/x8 for dual GPU, and x8/x4/x4 at tri-GPU. Having an x4 PCIe 3.0 is equivalent to an x8 PCIe 2.0, but only if you have a card that can take advantage of PCIe 3.0.

Due to this feature with the CPUs, the chipsets will have to adhere to PCIe 3.0 compliance, to deal with the transfers and lane layout design. A novel addition that we will see on many of the high-end boards is a series of onboard chips to increase the number of available lanes. These are known as PCIe 3.0 PLX PXE chips, which increase the number of lanes on the motherboard from 16 to 32—all rated PCIe 3.0. This also raises the cost of the motherboard, perhaps as much as $10-$15, so it is worth thinking long and hard if you really need that tri-GPU setup.

I guess OP, if you can't take the Heat of SNB-E, get out of the multigpu mATX kitchen.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5728/intel-z77-panther-point-chipset-and-motherboard-preview-asrock-asus-gigabyte-msi-ecs-and-biostar
Quote:
It has been well documented over the past few months that the top end model of the new processors should have a TDP of 77W. This is just shy of 50 watts less than the top models seen in Sandy Bridge-E, but more importantly, down from 95 watts as shown by the 2600K/2700K processors of Sandy Bridge. This does force a small change with the power delivery on Panther Point/Z77 products... However, this does lend itself to potential issues when used in conjunction with Sandy Bridge processors—having a power delivery system less robust than Z68 could perhaps hinder Sandy Bridge overclocks.

Hell on earth if new users went to z77/z75 with SNB and got some shoddy 4+1 phase system. I hope this will not be the case and threads like HALP MEH!!11!!11 MEH BOARD DIEADD will not start popping up all of a sudden.
Edited by Spykerv - 4/12/12 at 5:53pm
     
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post #28 of 45
Thread Starter 
ok couple of updates. First and most importantly.... MOMMA BIRD SHOWED UP!!! sooo the babies are perfectly fine. I couldnt take a great picture but this is the best I could do. you can see the flash flicker off her eye. Shes about the size of a little finch.

640

and now since everyone is happy and worry free about the little buggers that will hatch and ruin every one of my mornings... onto more pressing matters.

I really just wanted to stick with ivy bridge, but with me planning on upgrading my graphics cards by the end of the year, I decided to go with the x79. also hoping this platform will last me alot longer and I will have something to look forward to when the ivy bridge-E comes out.

really wanted the rampage gene BUT I got a sick deal on what I would consider second best mATX board. also... was really close to just pulling the trigger on the 3820... but yah... the greed in me ended up getting the 3930k since its only 500 at microcenter, with 40 dollars off a board. 160 for the asrock extreme4-m is not bad at all. the cheapest I could find it online was like 220 or 230... so all in all not a bad deal. only thing I dont like is the color scheme... I really like the red and black of the asus gene boards. oh well ^_^. lets see how my water loop handles the 3930k. 2 360 rads in a mATX case, but its also cooling 2 high heat 480's in SLI.

http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.us.asp?Model=X79%20Extreme4-M

Anyways thanks for all the help everyone! hope to see you around. and maybe ill actually start to post instead of just soaking up all the knowledge that is looming around this forum. oh and ill add some pictures of my case. was made by an amazing guy out in washington. please forgive the picture quality!!

finishedcomp3.jpg
finishedcomp2.jpg
finishedcomp.jpg
finishedcomp4.jpg
420
I guess quick rundown of the current specs.

Asus maximus IV gene-z
2600k @ 5gz 1.465v (stable 50 runs of extreme IBT)
2x4gb corsair vengeance ram
256 crucial m4 SSD (in picture agility 3 120gb)
2 480 gtx in SLI under water with EK blocks running @ 890.
7 120mm noiseblocker multiframe 1800rpm fans
Koolance RP-1000 pump/res/temp/fan controller
2x 360 Koolance Radiators painted red.
Seasonic 1250w PSU.

i think thats it..
Edited by bhk1004 - 4/12/12 at 6:04pm
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post #29 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhk1004 View Post

ok couple of updates. First and most importantly.... MOMMA BIRD SHOWED UP!!! sooo the babies are perfectly fine. I couldnt take a great picture but this is the best I could do. you can see the flash flicker off her eye. Shes about the size of a little finch.
*Snip*
and now since everyone is happy and worry free about the little buggers that will hatch and ruin every one of my mornings... onto more pressing matters.
I really just wanted to stick with ivy bridge, but with me planning on upgrading my graphics cards by the end of the year, I decided to go with the x79. also hoping this platform will last me alot longer and I will have something to look forward to when the ivy bridge-E comes out.
really wanted the rampage gene BUT I got a sick deal on what I would consider second best mATX board. also... was really close to just pulling the trigger on the 3820... but yah... the greed in me ended up getting the 3930k since its only 500 at microcenter, with 40 dollars off a board. 160 for the asrock extreme4-m is not bad at all. the cheapest I could find it online was like 220 or 230... so all in all not a bad deal. only thing I dont like is the color scheme... I really like the red and black of the asus gene boards. oh well ^_^. lets see how my water loop handles the 3930k. 2 360 rads in a mATX case, but its also cooling 2 high heat 480's in SLI.
http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.us.asp?Model=X79%20Extreme4-M
Anyways thanks for all the help everyone! hope to see you around. and maybe ill actually start to post instead of just soaking up all the knowledge that is looming around this forum. oh and ill add some pictures of my case. was made by an amazing guy out in washington. please forgive the picture quality!!
*snip*
I guess quick rundown of the current specs.
Asus maximus IV gene-z
2600k @ 5gz 1.465v
2x4gb corsair vengeance ram
256 crucial m4 SSD (in picture agility 3 120gb)
2 480 gtx in SLI under water with EK blocks running @ 890.
7 120mm noiseblocker multiframe 1800rpm fans
Koolance pump/res/temp/fan controller thing... cant remember the name.
2x 360 radiators... for the life of me cant remember the brand... the were custom painted red by whoever had them before me.
Seasonic 1250w PSU.
i think thats it..

Well I am really glad everything worked out in the end. Sweet deal on those boards, that is a definite steal.
Edited by Spykerv - 4/12/12 at 6:15pm
     
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 6800k Evga Micro2 Evga GTX 1080 FTW Hybrid Corsair Dominator 32GB 3200mhz (one of the stup... 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Intel 750 800gb Samsung 950 Pro 256gb with AngelWing PX1 PCIE h... Lol Corsair H80i v2 
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Western Digital Caviar Black Zalman CNPS10x Performa Windows 7 Ultimate OEM Samsung 223BW 
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post #30 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhk1004 View Post

which is a setup that can be run on a mATX... the whole point was just to show that the 680 is bottle necked by pcie 2.0 8x, and requires 16x to be properly utilized. which means that a dual chip solution (690 gtx) will probably be bottle necked by pcie 3.0 8x. I mean im not saying that I will go with the 690 gtx im just saying I would like the overhead so im searching for a possible option that will have the PLX PXE pcie 3.0 chip in an mATX solution. This will also give the option of keeping my ivy bridge option longer.
I mean I could just go x79 and all my problems will be solved, but the whole point of me going ivy is to keep my watercooled cpu temps a bit lower with higher overclocking overhead. regardless I will probably end up going SLI due to gaming on 2560x1440, and if I go with SLI, or quad via dual chip gpu, I dont want to be limited in my selection due to PCIE bandwith. Yes, I understand that they arent available right now and it might not be a cost effective solution for mobo manufacturers to include it, but curious if someone happens to decide to take the jump and include it on their boards.
saying there is no need for the bandwidth though is is a bit harsh when the limitations are already being presented basically 1 card release away. either the 7990 or the 690 gtx.

You must realize that my PCI-E 2.0 vs 3.0 tests put the PCI-E bus under far more stress than 99.9% of people will encounter. Another thing you must realize is that in a dual GPU / two card setup for Quad-SLI, each of the dual GPU's per card talk to each other over high speed communications directly on the card. The bandwidth traversing the PCI-E bus should be quite a bit lower than 4-Way SLI. Two 8x PCI-E 3.0 speed slots should handle virtually all traffic just fine, but with "big Kepler" and even faster cards on the horizon I would still lean towards a double 16x PCI-E 3.0 MB. Especially if you ever plan on doing any multi-display gaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spykerv View Post

All I'm saying is the man had driver errors (in this Q1 analysis/benchmark he released, especially that EVGA thread) he clearly stated that on the amd tri and quad solutions, x58 and p67, could in fact not boot certain games, or have massive driver errors. I stuck by said analysis, and look what happened to me. Another user, with you guessed it, proof of ownership of an Eyefinity setup with 2560 x 1600 monitors, doing exactly what Vega said wasn't possible. As I said, maybe Vegas drivers were premature at the time, because those pictures on that thread I linked are 100% real.

I hadn't realized so many people were hanging onto that old information that I put out way back in 'Jan 11. Those tests I did were in reference to my current setup at the time. That happened to be 4-Way crossfire 6970's on a 8x/8x/8x/8x PCI-E 2.0 P67 with a NF200 bridge and using AMD launch drivers. There just wasn't enough bandwidth to properly run 12-mega-pixels and the incredibly poor AMD drivers didn't help anything. I even spoke to AMD about the crossfire bridge limitations on their forums. I found out that the crossfire bridges and SLI bridges don't really handle frame swapping. The PCI-E bus does that and the bridges are mainly used for synchronization data. That high of a stress, that limited of bandwidth and those poor of drivers at that time led to epic failure. Hence why I moved on to the 3GB 580's so fast (X58) and it worked out great.

At that point in time that was the information I had and what worked, and what didn't. What "Levesque" pointed out in some thread nine-months late on a completely different chip-set and drivers I couldn't care less about. On top of that, he didn't even use the same GPU's as me! He used a 6990 and two 6970's. Can we say Apples to Oranges? Especially for a user, if you've read his post history, is so anti-Nvidia and pro AMD it borders on fanaticism. Yet you would rather take his word and screen shot of him playing a game (such compelling evidence) versus someone who is brand neutral and has tested every high end GPU from both manufacturers for the last five years. wink.gif
Edited by CallsignVega - 4/12/12 at 6:24pm
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Zybane
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