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[Nordic] Ivy Bridge gets 95W TDP, worse overclocker than Sandy Bridge - Page 15

post #141 of 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by christpunchers View Post

Yeah... 90c means less OC headroom, and needing more cooling to get the job done. That means possibly more elaborate HSF or WC or even more case fans or bigger cases, which some people don't want to bother with.
90c might not bug you, but for other people, they want to be able to run things cool and quietly without having to hassle with WC.

I don't think people are understanding the current 22nm processors. No one will be getting 90+C unless they overclocked wrong.

1.3v = 65C load on high end air
1.31v = 90+C load no matter what your cooling is (the exception is LN2 because it is actually cooling the CPU down, not just removing heat like water/air)

You can't throw more than X amount of volts into 22nm and expect the results to be good. Right now that value is around 1.3v, it will prob vary some from processor to processor. 1.3v should get you 4.6->4.8GHz, which is about on par to a 5.0->5.2GHz sandy bridge.
Edited by Murlocke - 4/15/12 at 2:11am
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post #142 of 287

The difference between 4.5-4.6 and ~5Ghz is more than 7%.  That offsets any higher IPC.  Again the real comparators are IPS (instructions per second) and IPW (instructions per watt).  Considering the higher power draw than expected (another test confirms that clock for clock, IB cores actually consume more power than SB cores even if the entire package might consume ~the same power) what it reveals about IB is that it's basically a useless investment for this market.  The mainstream market might like the improved GPU but this is easily going to be beat out by AMD's current and future (Trinity) offerings - not only in performance (IB might go head to head with Llano but that's it) but, mainly, software support and drivers.  It's not really a useful release for us in the OCer market and gives AMD a nice opportunity to play catch-up with Trinity APU and Vishera.

 

I can see Trinity APU becoming a popular adoption among us OCNers.  Some tested mobile Trinity APUs were actually getting better integer performance/clock than a mobile SB (perhaps it has to do with cache, platform, memory bandwidth holdback maybe on the SB mobile platform?); it was a comparison between the 2.2Ghz A8 4500M and the i7 2960XM.  However, the 2960XM is a 55W TDP processor, and I'm sure that a Trinity with the same 55W TDP could have similar capabiltiies.  On the desktop side of things, IPC is going up 11-20% or so which is going to bring Trinity APU to Phenom II IPC levels - while IPS (instructions per second) still benefits from higher clock speed.  Whereas 4Ghz on the 965/960 or 4.7 on the FX-4100 matched the i3 2100 and similar, we're soon going to have processors with the equivalence of 5Ghz Phenom II for the same price and with better single and multi-threaded performance.  Maybe not at lower power consumption entirely, but it's a win for our market!

 

I wasn't expecting the 3D transistor to have these problems, I really liked the idea and was hopeful about it; I was making the consideration of IB for my end-of-summer upgrade for the sake of improved power consumption and ability to lower footprint.  But so long as AMD has control of resonant clock mesh and didn't decide on 3D transistors, soon they're going to have the huge advantage in the market when it comes to power consumption.  Too bad I don't think it's something Intel can adopt, whereas AMD might have the opportunity to also take on 3D transistors in the future (I'm sure there are benefits, they're just not there in a simple die shrink and need a new architecture).


I'd say the worst part about this release is that IB is the end of the line for LGA1155 - replaced with LGA1150 next year.  Actually eh, AMD on the APU side is starting anew as well.  But I think FM2 will have more future compatibility.  AM3+ is also ready for Vishera and possibly beyond.

 

A note on die shrinks of the same architecture: if I'm not mistaken, historically they haven't brought any large power consumption benefits.  Take a look at 130nm->95nm->65nm Pentium 4.  Performance per watt nontheless remained similar with TDPs actually staying still if I'm not mistaken.  65nm-45nm C2D..... 45nm improved clockspeed OC ability but that's the gist of it.  45nm Phenom II->Llano.... the CPU cores themselves don't consume a lot less per core than well-binned Phenom II counterparts (i.e. 95W Phenom II x4 or 960T, but the cores do consume less than 125W TDP Phenom II x4 I think).

 

A note on CPU-Z TDPs: they are not accurate.  They calculate upon a constant formula and the only way to accurately measure TDP or the similar "power consumption" measurement is to actually measure the difference between idle and load with hardware and not software.  Software simply cannot measure TDP.


Edited by xd_1771 - 4/15/12 at 2:25am
post #143 of 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murlocke View Post

I don't think people are understanding the current 22nm processors. No one will be getting 90+C unless they overclocked wrong.
1.3v = 65C load on high end air
1.31v = 90+C load no matter what your cooling is (the exception is LN2 because it is actually cooling the CPU down, not just removing heat like water/air)
You can't throw more than X amount of volts into 22nm and expect the results to be good. Right now that value is around 1.3v, it will prob vary some from processor to processor. 1.3v should get you 4.6->4.8GHz, which is about on par to a 5.0->5.2GHz sandy bridge.

And which result do you think is easier to achieve?

I mean it could well be that the Ivy is going to take much more effort to get a stable 1.3v/4.6GHZ without it suddenly spiking like you said... whereas with the SB it might be easier to hit 4.8GHZ or higher.
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post #144 of 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by r34p3rex View Post

How'd they pull a bulldozer?

They didn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by r34p3rex View Post

Ivy Bridge is just a die shrink of Sandy Bridge.. it consumes less power too

Consuming slightly less power but significantly reducing die size means greater power/heat density.

Also, it was inevitable that moving to a smaller node would make the leakage curve less favorable. Moving to tri-gate transistors likely did reduce leakage, just not as much as people were hoping for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riou View Post

That would explain the alleged price drop.
Quote:
It is Intel's new 22 nanometer technology with Tri-gate transistors that has brought these limitations. The transistorsare extremely tightly packed and the die size is so small compared to earlier processors, that the heat cannot be removed fast enough with air and water cooling. Rumors has it Intel is not entirely on the mark with the new 22 nanometer technology and a box shot of a Core i7-3770k shows a higher TDP than earlier expected.

I said nearly the exact same things two days ago, and half the people on OCN think I'm crazy because I can do basic arithmetic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikezachlowe2004 View Post

If these rumors are true then this is very disappointing to see IB at 95watt TDP. TDP is basically the whole point behind doing a die shrink... very disappointing imo

Cost is the main point behind a die shrink.

And power consumption was reduced slightly. They could probably have gotten away with saying 77w TDP, but the increased total thermal resistance from the greater relative reduction of the die size probably means that coolers designed to only move 77w of heat can't keep the temperature delta between ambient air and on-die temps acceptable, even if that's all the heat that is produced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mygaffer View Post

People don't mean its exactly the same, just that early expectations are not being met, as was the case with Bulldozer.

The real problem is that people have stupid expectations based around abject ignorance of very fundamental principles. Neither Ivy, nor BD should have come as much of a surprise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

I dont think Water will help. It never does. Its will drop Temp 10C MAX. 80C is still terrible. Its not the Heat that its producing but the amount in a very small area.

Water won't help, that much.

What people refuse to understand is that these chips are not hotter because they are producing more heat.

They run hotter because higher thermal density increases the thermal resistance of the system, which makes it harder to remove heat from the die. If the chip is only producing 100-150w of heat while OCed, the difference between an air cooler that can move 250-300w of heat vs a custom loop that can move ~700w of heat still isn't going to be that big.
Quote:
Originally Posted by motoray View Post

Can't they move down to 22nm with out shrinking the die? For more surface area to dissipate heat?

Would totally defeat the purpose of the die shrink.
Quote:
Originally Posted by staryoshi View Post

I'll be happy if 4.2-4.4Ghz on an AIO water cooler is feasible. I don't care if it runs hotter, as long as it's within spec. It still uses less juice than SB, regardless of its rated TDP. Also, I want to get everything I can from the Z77 platform, as this will be my last desktop upgrade for quite a while (excluding the GPU).

You can probably do 4.5GHz on the stock cooler.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtom320 View Post

You know you could be right. But then again both the 28nm GPUs ran way cooler then their predecessors.

There is a reason NVIDIA dropped the IHS in their current generation of chips.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faketetrabyte View Post

I'm pretty much with jtom as well - things have been slowing down a bit

No they haven't. People just have no sense of history and anything that happened more than 10 minutes ago doesn't factor in to their reasoning.

Ivy Bridge is Intel's tick. It's a die shrink and minor refinement. Not a brand new architecture. Guess what? The last tick that happened two years ago went pretty much exactly the same way.

The is the same deal as Bloomfield vs. Gulftown. Gulftown, even the quads, do not overclock much better, or run much cooler than Bloomfield, and no one pitched a fit over them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klinkey View Post

Yeah go home and buy a Phenom II X6, run it at 90 degrees for a day and see what happens...

Intel chips do not handle heat better.

You only think this because you don't realize that reported temperatures on each platform are not reporting the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xd_1771 View Post

The difference between 4.5-4.6 and ~5Ghz is more than 7%.  That offsets any higher IPC. 

Ivy doesn't seem to OC worse in general, than Sandy.

I have both a 2600k and a 2700k, and neither of them will do past 4.7GHz on air. 5GHz is pretty rare for a 24/7 stable, air-cooled OC, on Sandy.

Most Ivy results so far are showing 4.7-4.8GHz. Which is quite comparable to what Sandy is typically capable of.
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post #145 of 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by christpunchers View Post

And which result do you think is easier to achieve?
I mean it could well be that the Ivy is going to take much more effort to get a stable 1.3v/4.6GHZ without it suddenly spiking like you said... whereas with the SB it might be easier to hit 4.8GHZ or higher.

A member here "punceh" can get 3570K stable @4.8GHz on 1.225V.
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post #146 of 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by christpunchers View Post

All this talk about Ivy's higher IPC do not make them a viable option.

Suppose that you're lucky and you can get away with an Ivy at 4.5GHZ but can't push it anymore. And let's say it matches the performance of a SB @ 4.8GHZ.

All things being the same, I'd take the SB. Why? The SB is going to run cooler, and I probably can OC it beyond 4.8GHZ for the same amount of effort it takes to get the 95W TDP Ivy to 4.5GHZ.

So in the end, the SB has a higher ceiling in terms of overclocking, outperforming the Ivy even with its improved IPC.

Of course, Ivy brings other enhancements, but I don't think extra ram speed or PCI-E 3.0 or IGPU matters for most people... might as well get a cheap SB and wait until Ivy matures.

Why purchase what I consider to be a top of the line CPU if you're not going to run a top of the line GPU, SSD, and memory? If you buy a GTX 680 and don't have pcie 3, you are wasting a large portion of your money for no reason. I don't currently have a gaming pc setup, so I know what I will be getting, but you guys really need to look at the z77 chipset for what it's worth.
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post #147 of 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shmerrick View Post

Why purchase what I consider to be a top of the line CPU if you're not going to run a top of the line GPU, SSD, and memory? If you buy a GTX 680 and don't have pcie 3, you are wasting a large portion of your money for no reason. I don't currently have a gaming pc setup, so I know what I will be getting, but you guys really need to look at the z77 chipset for what it's worth.

And 99999mhz memory will do what exactly for your gaming purposes? AFAIK the difference of today's best cards in PCI-E 2.0 vs 3.0 is insignificant. A GTX680 is not going to suddenly change how a game plays just because it's in 3.0 mode.

The Z77 chipset is not Intel's top of the line... it's mid range, performance desktop parts... some boards are pretty darn cheap. I don't see why it's necessary to have to have PCI-E 3.0 today or have ram that you can't take advantage of 99.9% of the time.

Besides, if you buy a basic gaming Intel setup today, the z77 will be the only choice anyhow.
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post #148 of 287
So, same TDP, worse overclocking, and higher price?

It better have a substantially higher IPC, because otherwise I don't see these getting a good reputation like Sandy did.
   
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post #149 of 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

So, same TDP, worse overclocking, and higher price?
It better have a substantially higher IPC, because otherwise I don't see these getting a good reputation like Sandy did.

IB comes with higher RAM speed and PCI 3.0 support. There's one thread shows 4.5GHz 3570K is equal to 4.7GHz 2600K with HT off. As long you don't go over 1.3V CPU won't cook. Under 1.3V could make 4.6-4.8GHz stable.
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post #150 of 287
Sandy bridge is just too good, nuff said.....
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Intel I7 6700k Asis Z170 Deluxe MSI GTX 1080 Gaming x 16GB Corsair vengence DDR4 3200 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung M2 256gb nvme Custom loop, 360+120 rads Windows 10 64bit Asus 28" MG28UQ 4K 
PowerCase
Seasonic X series 750w gold Corsair 400c 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [Nordic] Ivy Bridge gets 95W TDP, worse overclocker than Sandy Bridge