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Re-OCing my 2600K, a couple of questions - Page 3

post #21 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pent View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnarok05 View Post

I just have LLC set to auto, so that should be ok, yeah?

What level is your LLC? id personally set it manually but hows your vdroop in CPU-z? If your not getting crashes then your LLC is fine and your Vcore isn' t spiking.

I'm not actually sure of either of those. Tho I also use Core Temp, and the VID in that never goes higher than about 1.391v whic I've heard is the same as the vdroop in CPU-Z
post #22 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aesir View Post

Yep 1.5 volts for sandy bridge is the recommended voltage, so that's good. As for 1.375v vcore that's probably fine, you might be able to get lower voltage, but it seems to be working. Your max temperature is fine too, but I wouldn't go higher than that, as Intel's thermal junction is 72 degrees, so you don't want to go much higher.

Hmmm. I'm pretty sure that SMP settings is recommended for sandybridge OCing, which may or may not be 1.5V. Most are 1.5V. More importantly, I'm curious as to where you got intel's thermal junction for sandybridge to be 72 degrees. Last time I checked, the TJmin is 0, and the TJmax is 100. There are some overclockers who have written guides that have picked 72 degrees as thier recommended max, but that's a bit low to call a "max" imho. I think it's a good idea to stay at least 20 degrees below TJmax for daily operations, but technically sandbridge was designed to handle operating at 100 degrees (some say 98, but I'm looking at the intel spec sheet now). Once it hits TJmax, it will start to throttle down automatically unless you disable temp monitoring in the BIOS if I'm not mistaken.

Case in point, I'm not sure where you got this "72 degrees", and if I'm wrong here, I'd like to see a link or source. Otherwise, I think spreading misinformation quoting intel is bad. Here's my source:

http://download.intel.com/design/intarch/designgd/325676.pdf

Read section 3. And according to the notes under table two in section 3.1,
"Digital Thermal Sensor (DTS) based fan speed control is required to achieve optimal thermal performance. Intel recommends full cooling capability well before the DTS reading reaches TJ-Max. An example of this would be Tj,Max - 10ºC."

So looks more to me like Intel JUST used an example of 90 degrees C as it's full cooling capability. I personally use 80, but I'm not going to run around telling people that intel recommends 80, or even 90. Intel recommends "full cooling capability well before....TJmax (100C)." And that is all we know.
Edited by Arimis5226 - 4/25/12 at 5:58am
post #23 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnarok05 View Post

I'm not actually sure of either of those. Tho I also use Core Temp, and the VID in that never goes higher than about 1.391v whic I've heard is the same as the vdroop in CPU-Z

The VID will not change. The VID is the voltage that the CPU programs the motherboard CPU power regulator to produce. This is based on certain CPU pin assignments and is set during manufacturing and testing. This will vary from chip to chip within a specific range, if it does change its because of power saving states c1e, EIST, c3,c6 and what not cause the VID To recalculate its self but the VID means nothing regarding actual voltage just a calculation of the max voltage needed to run stock to send to a motherboard to run 100 percent no questions asked on a crap motherboard that is total crap. Also is set by intel when being manufactured,. the VID Is the Voltage Identification and the max voltage needed to run stock on a crappy motherboard and is completely different than vdroop its also unique from chip to chip and chip batches. I think your talking about vdrop with the cpu-z/ bios difference. VDROOP is different so is VID. Yes lol i know it is confusing and don't worry even seasoned overclockers can get em confused but make sure you know what these 3 are the VID,VDROOP. and VDROP.


Here is an article to explain Intel Vdroop: http://www.thetechrepository.com/showthread.php?t=126
Edited by pent - 4/25/12 at 8:36am
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post #24 of 29
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pent View Post

The VID will not change. The VID is the voltage that the CPU programs the motherboard CPU power regulator to produce. This is based on certain CPU pin assignments and is set during manufacturing and testing. This will vary from chip to chip within a specific range, if it does change its because of power saving states c1e, EIST, c3,c6 and what not cause the VID To recalculate its self but the VID means nothing regarding actual voltage just a calculation of the max voltage needed to run stock to send to a motherboard to run 100 percent no questions asked on a crap motherboard that is total crap. Also is set by intel when being manufactured,. the VID Is the Voltage Identification and the max voltage needed to run stock on a crappy motherboard and is completely different than vdroop its also unique from chip to chip and chip batches. I think your talking about vdrop with the cpu-z/ bios difference. VDROOP is different so is VID. Yes lol i know it is confusing and don't worry even seasoned overclockers can get em confused but make sure you know what these 3 are the VID,VDROOP. and VDROP.
Here is an article to explain Intel Vdroop: http://www.thetechrepository.com/showthread.php?t=126

I thnak you for the link, but is there anyway you can explain vdroop to me in plain english? Cos that article went waaaaay over my head, lol.

Although I did a quick Google search, and I saw one board post and the example given was that if your CPU needs a range of 1.35v-1.55v, it will idle at 1.5v, but then it may drop to 1.47v at full load. And that the vDroop is to protect if from the sudden drop in voltage under full load.

SO it's a kind of safety buffer of sorts? So the sudden change change in voltage doesnt cause a short or too much stress?
Edited by Ragnarok05 - 4/25/12 at 10:57am
post #25 of 29
Thread Starter 
Also, I cant seem to chewck my actual voltage when my PC is running, because CPU-Z doesnt show it. It just shows 1.080v at all times. Which if that were the case, I must have the most forgiving 2600K on the market to be able to clock to 4.6Ghz.

The only program I have whose voltage reading goes up at all is the VID reading on Core Temp. Can I still use that to sort of gauge whats going on? Like, the max it goes to on the VID is about 1.39v, Like I said, so if thats how much it THINKS I need, it's using a bit less than that, more at my actual setting in the BIOS?
post #26 of 29
Thread Starter 
And just to saturate my own thread (Sorry guys) my LLC seems to be set to disabled. Should I just leave it off?
post #27 of 29
Hmm. Okay, now we're starting to get into some real OC theory. So there are two ideas about this, and it's once again up to you to decide which way you want to go.

1. Leave LLC disabled. The cpu manufacterers designed thier chips' voltages to fluctuate as needed, for good reason. LLC is a little option that mobo manufacturers created to give the OCer control over that fluctation. In some more extreme OC cases, VDROOP becomes so great that it actually effects the stability of the CPU. If you can manage your OC without LLC, then this probably doesn't apply to you. If you do this, the CPU will essentially use less voltage on average, which means less power consumption, which means less heat and lower CPU temps (although generally hardly noticable). This is one perception. Another option is to...

2. Increase/decrease LLC until CPU voltage under load = CPU voltage at idle. Error towards CPU voltage at idle being slightly higher than load. Higher LLC = higher cpu voltage under load. LLC adds voltage during load, minimizing the amount it decreases when it shifts from idle to load (Vdroop). This will essentially nearly eliminate vdroop, which means the CPU will be running closer to whatever voltage you tell it to run at ALL the time. So basically, with LLC enabled and tweeked, whatever you set CPU voltage to in the BIOS, your CPU is going to keep it there (or close to it) all the time. This of course depends on whether you are using manual or offset. It's important not to raise LLC too high, so you don't overvolt your CPU. This will create the exact opposite of vdroop, aka vrise. Basically when your voltage under load is higher than under idle, this is a bad thing. You're putting too much stress on the voltage regulators, and you could push too much voltage under load to your CPU and fry your chip.

I personally go back and forth on this. As of late, I've ben overclocking with LLC enabled to get an idea of where I need to set my CPU voltage with a manual setting instead of offset, but once I get things stable, I'll disable LLC and let it ride. I look at LLC as a tool for overclockers to use to find the overclock, but I don't think intel wants us to run the CPUs llike that all the time, otherwise why would they design the chips the way that they do? On that note, I also don't overclock beyond 4.8 on this CPU. Maybe if I went higher LLC would be required, but I haven't needed it yet tbh. Many may argue that intel doesn't design thier chips to fluctate as much as they do at higher OC, and LLC is a must for overclocking. To that I say, I can fry my chip more easily increasing voltage than I can by not using LLC.

I actually had a guy tell me that OCing without LLC was dangerous for the CPU at anything over 5ghz. Really? OCing your CPU to anything over 5ghz is dangerous anyways on these chips, but there are several people who manage it. Most of us would fry our cpu at 5ghz, considering the voltage we would need. Just sayin'.
post #28 of 29
Yeah if your stable rightnow without the need for LLC Compensation then id leave it but watch that drop in voltage under load, LLC is basically Vdroop Compensation so it will make your IDLE Vcore higher but you wont get vdroop under load. vdroop is basically designed by intel and the reason for vdroop is because when a CPU goes under load it requests a large amount of power and on some really crappy motherboards they may overshoot the voltage which would kill the chip so intel has implemented Vdroop A regulator's output voltage will decrease proportional to load (current). Its basically in simple terms a way for intel to save money and motherboard manufacturer's on capacitors its rather indepth if you look into it but basically vdroop prevents the offshoot. Enabling LLC disables vDroop, goes against Intel's specifications, and allows dangerous voltage spikes when overclocking like this. If it were a really small overclock, then I guess I wouldn't be worried, Personally during idle ill see higher voltage so the load voltage doesnt overshoot if i just leave LLC on High ill notice very bad spikes i need Very high, Disabling it leaves vdroop at intel spec and lets your motherboard not make the decision as to level. personally if your fine rightnow and your voltages are good in CPU-z not going allover the place with spikes and your not BSODing in intel burn test and prime95 leave it.
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post #29 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by pent View Post

Yeah if your stable rightnow without the need for LLC Compensation then id leave it but watch that drop in voltage under load, LLC is basically Vdroop Compensation so it will make your IDLE Vcore higher but you wont get vdroop under load. vdroop is basically designed by intel and the reason for vdroop is because when a CPU goes under load it requests a large amount of power and on some really crappy motherboards they may overshoot the voltage which would kill the chip so intel has implemented Vdroop A regulator's output voltage will decrease proportional to load (current). Its basically in simple terms a way for intel to save money and motherboard manufacturer's on capacitors its rather indepth if you look into it but basically vdroop prevents the offshoot. Enabling LLC disables vDroop, goes against Intel's specifications, and allows dangerous voltage spikes when overclocking like this. If it were a really small overclock, then I guess I wouldn't be worried, Personally during idle ill see higher voltage so the load voltage doesnt overshoot if i just leave LLC on High ill notice very bad spikes i need Very high, Disabling it leaves vdroop at intel spec and lets your motherboard not make the decision as to level. personally if your fine rightnow and your voltages are good in CPU-z not going allover the place with spikes and your not BSODing in intel burn test and prime95 leave it.
Pretty much what I was saying, but better description of why vdroop occurs. For some higher overclocking, LLC may be required because vdroop by design actually may prevent enough voltage form getting to the CPU to perform the required function. IMO this isn't a bad thing. Basically, it's your CPUs way of saying "whoa this is more power than I was designed to work with." If you're not stable with LLC disabled, you may want to reconsider overclocking that high. Just my two cents.
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