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[TPU] Ivy Bridge Temperatures Could Be Linked To TIM Inside Integrated Heatspreader: Report - Page 37  

post #361 of 387
Hey those AIO liquid coolers are amazing for certain purposes, like very large high wattage dies found in GPUs. AIO liquid coolers can cool immense volumes of heat compared to air heatsinks, But they don't do well when the heat transfer area is as small as a CPU.

With Ivy AIO liquid coolers will be even less relevant, as will massive air coolers, simply because the problem is in the die it's self. Any cooling method above ambient will not be able to pull the heat out of the die fast enough to lower temps, natural convection wont allow it because heat moves slowly through this extremely dense die. Sub ambient cooling has already shown magnificent results with this chip because at those temperatures, the delta between the die's temperature and that of the cooling surface is so vast that constraints like die size and density no longer apply.

What I'm curious about is how Ivy will perform with chilled sub ambient water loops or TECs. Has anybody seen anything about this?
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post #362 of 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post

Nothing personal but you kinda are speaking from ignorance. Not total ignorance of course but if you don't have experience with the Hydro Series you really shouldn't take such a hardline stance. Hydro Series coolers have a very good reputation for a reason. People mod them to start preparing for a custom loop. I sold mine after a year because I knew that if I didn't sell it, I would end up spending more money putting my loop together in the long run and I felt that I didn't wish to open the H50 up and have to dispose of the ethylene glycol mix and continue using the stuff once the system was modded. They are seriously great performers and it doesn't take much to make them better performers either. wink.gif
Now this is not to say Kuhler is a bad setup for you Antec guys lurking in the background, but I wouldn't say that all AIO setups are awesome based on my limited experience and knowledge of Corsair Hydro Series Coolers. I'm sure there are more than a few that lacked the performance that the cost of one should inspire. smile.gif
~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif

Asetek makes both the H50 and the Kuhler 620. They also make the H70 and Kuhler 920. The Kuhler 620 outperforms the H50 and the 920 the H70. Only recently did Corsair's offerings start to get better (outside the QC issues) than the Kuhler series and it required Corsair switching manufacturers.

The fact of the matter is that CLCs are a good start, but not there yet. The pumps are too weak, the blocks need work, and their stock fans are a joke. In it's current state, it's an aesthetic choice over air cooling or for cases that can't fit good air cooling. It's no better than air and, dollar for dollar, air will outperform CLCs.

And those who mod them are a small niche group. If you want water cooling cheap, buy an XSPC Rasa kit.

Call me ignorant all you want, but I know I'm the one who can bring facts and benches galore to back my claims.
Edited by nubbinator - 4/28/12 at 7:57pm
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post #363 of 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by nubbinator View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post

Nothing personal but you kinda are speaking from ignorance. Not total ignorance of course but if you don't have experience with the Hydro Series you really shouldn't take such a hardline stance. Hydro Series coolers have a very good reputation for a reason. People mod them to start preparing for a custom loop. I sold mine after a year because I knew that if I didn't sell it, I would end up spending more money putting my loop together in the long run and I felt that I didn't wish to open the H50 up and have to dispose of the ethylene glycol mix and continue using the stuff once the system was modded. They are seriously great performers and it doesn't take much to make them better performers either. wink.gif
Now this is not to say Kuhler is a bad setup for you Antec guys lurking in the background, but I wouldn't say that all AIO setups are awesome based on my limited experience and knowledge of Corsair Hydro Series Coolers. I'm sure there are more than a few that lacked the performance that the cost of one should inspire. smile.gif
~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif

Asetek makes both the H50 and the Kuhler 620. They also make the H70 and Kuhler 920. The Kuhler 620 outperforms the H50 and the 920 the H70. Only recently did Corsair's offerings start to get better (outside the QC issues) than the Kuhler series and it required Corsair switching manufacturers.

The fact of the matter is that CLCs are a good start, but not there yet. The pumps are too weak, the blocks need work, and their stock fans are a joke. In it's current state, it's an aesthetic choice over air cooling or for cases that can't fit good air cooling. It's no better than air and, dollar for dollar, air will outperform CLCs.

And those who mod them are a small niche group. If you want water cooling cheap, buy an XSPC Rasa kit.

Call me ignorant all you want, but I know I'm the one who can bring facts and benches galore to back my claims.

First off, I know who makes what.

2nd off I know you're not going to tell me that the 620 and the H50 perform the same. The 920 and the H70 might perform the same but the only similarity between the H50 and the 620 is that Acetek made them.

Corsair dropped those fools as soon as they started manufacturing for their competitor. In any case the performance was not the same imho. Just cause they were all made by Acetek til H80 and H100, don't mean squat. 620 has mounting problems compared to H50. Gigabyte boards(more specifically) had a very rough time of it trying to mount the 620 block. Somewhere around OCN there is a thread where the 620 couldn't be fully seated without crushing the surrounding Caps with that big ole square block. You wanna know how good Hydro Coolers have been in the market? Go check out the Official Hydro Series thread. rolleyes.gif

Again you can't speak for something you don't know if you never had any experience with it. Regardless of whom it's made by. Corsair demands a higher quality level than most. They aren't perfect of course but I doubt they would back an Acetek cooler with full system protection if they had questions about the construction or what its capable of. We're speaking of thousands of dollars worth of warranties they're willing to back. I don't know what Antec's warranty is like but I doubt it's on the same level. wink.gif

Anyway, I'm sure people don't want this thread devolving into an all in one cooler flame fest. If you have something besides your personal bias to bring to the conversation then by all means I don't mind. But if not let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that. mellowsmiley.gif

Also, didn't directly call you ignorant. It was your assertion that you weren't. By saying "you kinda are" I'm saying you're not fully informed. I don't mean nuthin personal by this at all. No need to take it personal. sleepsmiley02.gif

~Ceadder smil3dbd4e4c2e742.gif
Edited by Ceadderman - 4/28/12 at 8:27pm
 
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post #364 of 387
Yes, let's bring an end to the semi-off-topic CLC debate smile.gif

The reason I (sort of) brought it up was another user's question which implied the same general idea I've heard from a lot of people, and has burned a lot of people -- that CLCs are "water cooling", and therefore they nearly have to be better (or at least quieter) than "air cooling".
Then they bring home their new CLC, and quickly buyer's remorse sets in as they realize there was an air cooler with a competitive price that was both cooler and quieter.

Sure, custom water vs stock air, but when you compare CLCs vs. Noctua/Phanteks/Thermalright/Prolimatech, it gets a little more complicated wink.gif
CLCs need work.
Edited by Ranguvar - 4/28/12 at 9:19pm
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post #365 of 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post

2nd off I know you're not going to tell me that the 620 and the H50 perform the same. The 920 and the H70 might perform the same but the only similarity between the H50 and the 620 is that Acetek made them.

No, I'm not saying they perform the same. The 620 is better. HardOCP, benchmarReviews, KitGuru and Tweaktown.

The 920 beats the H70 as well. LegitReviews, BenchmarkReviews, HardwareSecrets, HardOCP, KitGuru.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post

Corsair dropped those fools as soon as they started manufacturing for their competitor. In any case the performance was not the same imho.

Performance got better when they switched manufacturers. The H80 is better than the H70 and the H60 is better than the H50. You are correct in that the performance is not the same, but you're wrong in what you're implying. The performance has improved since they've switched OEMs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post

Just cause they were all made by Acetek til H80 and H100, don't mean squat. 620 has mounting problems compared to H50. Gigabyte boards(more specifically) had a very rough time of it trying to mount the 620 block. Somewhere around OCN there is a thread where the 620 couldn't be fully seated without crushing the surrounding Caps with that big ole square block. You wanna know how good Hydro Coolers have been in the market? Go check out the Official Hydro Series thread.

Instead of telling me somewhere out there there's something to back you up, bring evidence to the table. I have never seen or heard of mounting issues with the 620. In fact, their mounting brackets are pretty much the same, the difference is the tubes come out the side of the 620 and the top of the H50. The H60 would have the same mounting issues as the 620, but again, I've never heard of any issues. If there are boards with mounting issues, they're poorly designed ones since there are heatsinks whose heatpipes would cause the same issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post

Anyway, I'm sure people don't want this thread devolving into an all in one cooler flame fest. If you have something besides your personal bias to bring to the conversation then by all means I don't mind. But if not let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Also, didn't directly call you ignorant. It was your assertion that you weren't. By saying "you kinda are" I'm saying you're not fully informed. I don't mean nuthin personal by this at all. No need to take it personal.

I'm bring facts and evidence to back my claims. Like I have said several times now, I am not speaking from ignorance and I have nothing again CLCs, there's a place for them, but they're not there yet.

Stop turning it around and calling me ignorant and saying I'm taking it personally and interjecting my own bias into it. I bought a CLC because I had no bias, I was truly interested in what they had to offer. Through my experience, benches I have seen, and posts I have seen, I have established an opinion on their current state based around empirical and repeatable evidence. This is not bias, this is fact. On the other hand, I have seen you waxing on about how awesome Corsair is and preaching the glory of CLCs. Yes, they have their place, but they are not there yet when compared to air cooling at the same price.

Back to IB. CLCs really aren't going to be any better for it than air cooling and, by the looks of it, water cooling isn't going to have any big gains over custom loops. I wonder how they're going to start addressing the temp issues as dies keep getting smaller and smaller. TEC is too far outside the knowledge range for most people and phase change is so expensive, it'll be interesting to see what new techs they can invent to try and address the issue or how they'll design CPUs in the future to try and alleviate the temp issues. The idea of building heatpipes made out of graphene or carbon fiber into the CPU that was mentioned earlier was an interesting one, but I really wonder if that's even possible.
Edited by nubbinator - 4/28/12 at 9:11pm
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post #366 of 387
:AHEM:

I still get the feeling TIM played a large part in this and the test previous poster posted was flawed.
post #367 of 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

Up until about 2002 or so no CPUs no AMD CPUs had heatspreaders, not sure when Intel started using them.

Around when the P3 Tualatins came out.
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post #368 of 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbdullahG View Post

So Intel used regular thermal paste so the IHS is safer to remove? Don't see why they did that. Just curious, how many users here actually remove the IHS for performance-related reasons?

I see one thing to do with this. Remove IHS, LAP the living snot out of it! replace it with some kind of high end TIM, such as ICD,Shin Etsu, ect, ect. This would be a very user friendly performance mod in that you have less chance of destroying your CPU during the lapping process.
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post #369 of 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

Up until about 2002 or so no CPUs no AMD CPUs had heatspreaders, not sure when Intel started using them. It's not a problem if you can mount it securely the first time. Personally the difference between using a heatspreader and not using one has never been enough for me to remove it, but if Ivy is truly having problems because of it, then it may be worth it for some.

Actually, there were IHS' on pretty much every chip that needed any heatsinks at all until the Pentium II in Slot 1, same for AMD with Slot A. All their Socket 7 chips had IHS'

AMD adopted them again on Socket 754 and 939 and Intel adopted them on Socket 423
    
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post #370 of 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehidecheck View Post

:AHEM:
I still get the feeling TIM played a large part in this and the test previous poster posted was flawed.

One way or the other we shall find out if it is the TIM, I am sure members/reviewers will shine some light doing a IHS removal.
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Rumors and Unconfirmed Articles › [TPU] Ivy Bridge Temperatures Could Be Linked To TIM Inside Integrated Heatspreader: Report