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post #141 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoopaScoopa View Post

12 out 16 games meet or beat Llano. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
Great job contradicting yourself there... The whole point was the comparison between the mobile variant of Llano to the mobile variant of IB. As I already said, Intel's half-hearted attempt at integrating a GPU onto the die has it meeting or beating Llano in 12 out of 16 games with beta drivers.
There's no need to bring up the bloated desktop variant that consumes far more power than Intel's desktop chips. Most the people using iGPUs are laptop users which is what's actually relevant here.
They are benching next gen graphics against the competitors previous gen. Kind makes no sense if you think about it really... I got an idea, lets benchmark Trinity's graphics against Intel's HD 3000 when trinity desktop releases. boxing3.gif
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post #142 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoopaScoopa View Post

12 out 16 games meet or beat Llano. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
Great job contradicting yourself there... The whole point was the comparison between the mobile variant of Llano to the mobile variant of IB. As I already said, Intel's half-hearted attempt at integrating a GPU onto the die has it meeting or beating Llano in 12 out of 16 games with beta drivers.
There's no need to bring up the bloated desktop variant that consumes far more power than Intel's desktop chips. Most the people using iGPUs are laptop users which is what's actually relevant here.

I showed that comparison to prove that you made irrelevant comparisons. Llano production is going EOL. From Q3 its all Trinity. Trinity mobile A10 / A8 vs Ivybridge mobile core i3 / core i5 is what its gonna be. On desktop Core i3 will in fact ship with HD 2500 and not HD 4000. So the situation will be even worse vs AMD Trinity A10 / A8.
As far as mobile core i7 quad core is concerned , those are sold with high end discrete graphics from AMD / Nvidia. They cost USD 1000+. So don't compare mobile i7 with Trinity at all. AMD does not have a product competing with Intel core i7 mobile. But thats their strategy. They are choosing the segments in which to compete carefully. In the high end competing against Intel which has a huge manufacturing advantage is impossible.
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post #143 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warmonger View Post

They are benching next gen graphics against the competitors previous gen. Kind makes no sense if you think about it really... I got an idea, lets benchmark Trinity's graphics against Intel's HD 3000 when trinity desktop releases. boxing3.gif
Right now, the latest APU from AMD is Llano. It is not last-gen. Trinity is a future product for Q3 and does not exist yet. When Trinity comes out later this year, it will be compared to IB, not a true last-gen chip. Your idea is quite foolish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raghu78 View Post

I showed that comparison to prove that you made irrelevant comparisons.
As far as mobile core i7 quad core is concerned , those are sold with high end discrete graphics from AMD / Nvidia. They cost USD 1000+.
doh.gif I compared the IB's HD 4000 mobile GPU to the mobile variant of Llano. Nothing was irrelevant. That's how the two laptop chips perform in comparison. You trying to bring up the bloated TDP desktop chips is what's irrelevant here. i7 laptops can also be found for $700 so try again.

I wouldn't even want to be stuck with an AMD processor on a laptop with discrete graphics that's being held back by the extremely low IPC, just as Bulldozer bottlenecks even a single 7950.
Edited by PoopaScoopa - 5/2/12 at 5:42am
post #144 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumpet-205 View Post

All Ivy CPUs (including i3) for laptop use HD4000. Don't know why people thinks that HD4000 is for i7-3770K only.
And I thought we are talking about mobile version are we not? In that case high speed RAM is out of question, since to make laptop appealing few (if any) manufacturers will include high speed RAM in their laptops. And it is not like majority of laptop users will spend more money afterwards on getting faster RAMs.
PoopaScoopa is comparing an mobile version of Ivy to mobile version of Llano. All Ivy CPUs (including i3) for laptop use HD4000.
All the sudden you bring out desktop comparison? kookoo.gif

I didn't mean to say that HD4K is desktop i7-3xxx series only, but it's the unfortunate case that by and large, any benchmarks involving it (that I've seen, just by searching for "intel HD4k benchmarks" or something similar) are using the desktop i7-37xx as the CPU. That combined with benchmarking games at a very low resolution (1024x768) and the lowest game detail settings is the problem--at that point any game will be CPU-bound, so the performance numbers you see aren't indicative of the IGP but rather the CPU. I haven't seen (not saying they don't exist) any HD4K benchmarks that are using a slower or mobile-version of an IB chip. And since we're looking at gaming performance, I fail to see the relevance in reporting the performance at a resolution lower than the most common resolution, and at low detail settings. If you want to report gaming performance of a GPU, then use game settings that force the numbers to be indicative of actual GPU performance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KhaoticKomputing View Post

No not Sony...At least they haven't claimed apple is has "stolen" any of their ideas/ tech:) Lots of their tech is not new, or cutting edge, look at their PC's for instance. Its normal hardware that they Approve of... They do design hardware, but I'm also positive they have other company's design some of it for them.

So what? Do you think Dell computers use tech that is cutting edge or new? They still design their own products.

If anything can be said about Apple, is that it's fanatical about product design, and having total control over the design of the product. That's what they do and how they function--it's how they established their brand. They have teams of product design engineers working on their hardware development. They don't outsource or generally consult on their product designs (and not that I disagree, but whether or not their product ideas are new or cutting edge is irrelevant--they still do their own product design in-house, and to be honest, a lot of their designs have historically been pretty revolutionary).

EDIT
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoopaScoopa View Post

Right now, the latest APU from AMD is Llano. It is not last-gen. Trinity is a future product for Q3 and does not exist yet. When Trinity comes out later this year, it will be compared to IB, not a true last-gen chip. Your idea is quite foolish.
doh.gif I compared the IB's HD 4000 mobile GPU to the mobile variant of Llano. Nothing was irrelevant. That's how the two laptop chips perform in comparison. You trying to bring up the bloated TDP desktop chips is what's irrelevant here. i7 laptops can also be found for $700 so try again.

I agree that I don't understand why people are complaining about comparing to AMD's "previous gen" llano--it's true, that's what's out and available. Talk trinity when it's released.

But I would still like to know where those graphs came from that you posted. They're not particularly useful in reporting a mere relative % performance, and I'm curious what settings were used, what specific cpus were used, etc. The link to the picture just goes to a dropbox account. I ask because all of the benchmarks comparing HD4K to AMD APU posts I can see are pitting the desktop i7 variant (pretty much a 3770K) against them, and using uber-low resolution and game settings. Do you have a different source? Can you link it?
Edited by guyladouche - 5/2/12 at 5:43am
    
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post #145 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoopaScoopa View Post

Right now, the latest APU from AMD is Llano. It is not last-gen. Trinity is a future product for Q3 and does not exist yet. When Trinity comes out later this year, it will be compared to IB, not a true last-gen chip. Your idea is quite foolish.
doh.gif I compared the IB's HD 4000 mobile GPU to the mobile variant of Llano. Nothing was irrelevant. That's how the two laptop chips perform in comparison. You trying to bring up the bloated TDP desktop chips is what's irrelevant here. i7 laptops can also be found for $700 so try again.
I wouldn't even want to be stuck with an AMD processor on a laptop with discrete graphics that's being held back by the extremely low IPC, just as Bulldozer bottlenecks even a single 7950.

You are such a pain tongue.gif. I said do not compare mobile i7 with mobile Llano . The core i7 are top of the range quad core with HT and very high turbo speeds. They are all 45w and 55w. Obviously the core i7 with 45w, quad core with HT and vastly superior turbo will make a significant CPU impact in games against Llano mobile which had far lower CPU clocks with turbo not being very effective.
Mobile core i3 are dual core with HT. They will have lower clock speeds with no turbo at all . Mobile Core i5 (dual core with HT) will have higher clock speeds and will have turbo. Both of them are 35w. AMD Trinity will compete with these products. Don't you get it. You are comparing a last gen AMD product with a current gen Intel product. Also they are in different price segments. In fact the core i7 will be double the cost of Trinity A10 too.
As far as Trinity from Q3, I meant to say there will be some llano production in q2. After that none. Trinity has been in production from Feb. AMD confirmed that at their analyst day meeting in feb. AMD Trinity mobile is releasing on May 15, desktop early Q3. So trinity based notebooks are already with OEMs ready for the launch. Whereas Intel core i7 quad core is the only mobile processor released. Intel mobile core i5 and core i3 are said to be releasing in June, desktop core i3 in Q3. So then you can make relevant comparisons. Till that shut your trap mad.gif
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post #146 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoopaScoopa View Post

Right now, the latest APU from AMD is Llano. It is not last-gen. Trinity is a future product for Q3 and does not exist yet. When Trinity comes out later this year, it will be compared to IB, not a true last-gen chip. Your idea is quite foolish.
doh.gif I compared the IB's HD 4000 mobile GPU to the mobile variant of Llano. Nothing was irrelevant. That's how the two laptop chips perform in comparison. You trying to bring up the bloated TDP desktop chips is what's irrelevant here. i7 laptops can also be found for $700 so try again.
I wouldn't even want to be stuck with an AMD processor on a laptop with discrete graphics that's being held back by the extremely low IPC, just as Bulldozer bottlenecks even a single 7950.


Yea but in the graph they could at least used a high end Llano but they didn't, they used a mid/high range. As the paragraph below that says on anadtech, expect 20% increase for a high end llano with 1600 memory which is still reasonsable to find on a laptop. That goes from 12 of 16 to only 2 beating and 2 more within 10% of Llano.
post #147 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by raghu78 View Post

You are such a pain tongue.gif. I said do not compare mobile i7 with mobile Llano . The core i7 are top of the range quad core with HT and very high turbo speeds. They are all 45w and 55w. Obviously the core i7 with 45w, quad core with HT and vastly superior turbo will make a significant CPU impact in games against Llano mobile which had far lower CPU clocks with turbo not being very effective.
Mobile core i3 are dual core with HT. They will have lower clock speeds with no turbo at all . Mobile Core i5 (dual core with HT) will have higher clock speeds and will have turbo. Both of them are 35w. AMD Trinity will compete with these products. Don't you get it. You are comparing a last gen AMD product with a current gen Intel product. Also they are in different price segments. In fact the core i7 will be double the cost of Trinity A10 too.
As far as Trinity from Q3, I meant to say there will be some llano production in q2. After that none. Trinity has been in production from Feb. AMD confirmed that at their analyst day meeting in feb. AMD Trinity mobile is releasing on May 15, desktop early Q3. So trinity based notebooks are already with OEMs ready for the launch. Whereas Intel core i7 quad core is the only mobile processor released. Intel mobile core i5 and core i3 are said to be releasing in June, desktop core i3 in Q3. So then you can make relevant comparisons. Till that shut your trap mad.gif

What PoopaScoopa's problem is he is trying to compare two different generations of processors, its like comparing oranges to lemons. Ivy Bridge should be compared with Trinity, Sandy Bridge with Llano, etc. Even tho the two company's don't compete anymore there is still a generation vs generation that goes on. Pretty much what he did there was compared the HD 6000 series to the GTX 600 series. Same concept, doesn't work out to well. The only time you should compare them is to see what type of performance increase there is over the competitors previous generation (which no one cares about). And certainly no one wants to hear someone gloat how its better because it happen to come out a week or two before the competitors solution...
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post #148 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrbroad77 View Post

That's really pathetic of you to take a graph out of context. 100% is parity between the 2, as mentioned here. HD 4000 wins some, loses some against 6620G. http://www.anandtech.com/show/5772/mobile-ivy-bridge-and-asus-n56vm-preview/6
The official record states: Average of 15 games as tested, 6620G scores 36.4 FPS, HD 4000 scores 36.2 FPS.578

Looking at the games the HD 4000 "won", I going to have to say that assumption is all wrong. The HD 4000 didn't win a few of those, the CPU did.

Stalker in very single threaded.

Skyrim favors Intel just like all the previous Gamebryo related games and it loves higher clocks.

L4D2 is the Source engine, easier on the GPU and kind of easy on the CPU too ...but the better CPU wins it because L4D2 has to process a larger amount of AI. You'll note that Portal 2 [Source engine without a lot of AI] has AMD ahead.


Intel's strength in CPUs is padding the HD 4000's results and AMD's weakness in CPUs in actually making the graphics run with one hand tied behind it's back. If AMD's graphics was being pushed by Intel's CPU, you'd see many more losses for the HD 4000.

Intel is definitely further behind in graphics than they are trying to make it appear.
Edited by thegreatsquare - 5/2/12 at 8:21am
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post #149 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreatsquare View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrbroad77 View Post

That's really pathetic of you to take a graph out of context. 100% is parity between the 2, as mentioned here. HD 4000 wins some, loses some against 6620G. http://www.anandtech.com/show/5772/mobile-ivy-bridge-and-asus-n56vm-preview/6
The official record states: Average of 15 games as tested, 6620G scores 36.4 FPS, HD 4000 scores 36.2 FPS.578

Intel is definitely further behind in graphics than they are trying to make it appear.

What I see is that the only game that Intel lost where AMD also didn't lose was Total War. If it's not > 30 fps then it doesn't matter who wins because both lose. I'd like to see what Trinity does though, because a 30% improvement over 20 fps just isn't going to cut it so maybe the "gpu for the masses" fight isn't over just yet.
post #150 of 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreatsquare View Post

Looking at the games the HD 4000 "won", I going to have to say that assumption is all wrong. The HD 4000 didn't win a few of those, the CPU did ...snip... Intel is definitely further behind in graphics than they are trying to make it appear.
This is exactly what I've been saying--with the resolution and game settings used in virtually all of the HD4K benchmarks published to-date, they're all CPU-bound. None are a good indication of what the GPU itself is capable of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr/owned View Post

What I see is that the only game that Intel lost where AMD also didn't lose was Total War. If it's not > 30 fps then it doesn't matter who wins because both lose. I'd like to see what Trinity does though, because a 30% improvement over 20 fps just isn't going to cut it so maybe the "gpu for the masses" fight isn't over just yet.

Keeping in mind that the 6620 isn't the only GPU that AMD packages in its APUs. The 6550D in the A8-3850 generally yields higher performance than the 6620 or HD4K. Trinity is supposed to be 30% faster than the A8-3850 with the 6550D (not the 6620). The important factor to consider is that AMD will continue to release newer graphical cores at a steady rate, as they have been doing already. What does Intel have planned beyond HD4K other than driver refreshes?
    
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