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So no good fingertip grip mouse for now? (Or: Abyssus wins contest for bad design) - Page 2

post #11 of 20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JassimH View Post

Razer Orochi
Yeah, I liked this one as a prospect also. Even though the design reminds me of a stealth fighter more than a sports car, I figured it'd probably be more comfortable than something with a big ol' seam on both sides (Abyssus).

Sadly, it has a pretty bad flaw called the "z-axis flaw". I lift my mouse quite a bit, without thinking about it. This flaw would screw me up. Would definitely love to learn that they fixed it, but my understanding is that it's an inherent issue with the sensor - and seemingly every Philips Twin Eye sensor - because of the fact that they are angled. Sticking a piece of tape around my finger would be less disruptive to my gaming than having the pointer scoot several inches down-right all the time. Ref: http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=2024663
post #12 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterra View Post

Yeah, I liked this one as a prospect also. Even though the design reminds me of a stealth fighter more than a sports car, I figured it'd probably be more comfortable than something with a big ol' seam on both sides (Abyssus).
Sadly, it has a pretty bad flaw called the "z-axis flaw". I lift my mouse quite a bit, without thinking about it. This flaw would screw me up. Would definitely love to learn that they fixed it, but my understanding is that it's an inherent issue with the sensor - and seemingly every Philips Twin Eye sensor - because of the fact that they are angled. Sticking a piece of tape around my finger would be less disruptive to my gaming than having the pointer scoot several inches down-right all the time. Ref: http://www.esreality.com/index.php?a=post&id=2024663

It's there, but the mouse being small (and you using a finger-tip grip) means that it is SOO little. It has the same sensor as the new imperator and the mamba (I've owned countless razer/logitech and steelseries mice) and the mamba/imperator have it worse due to the mouse being bigger it shifts more when you lift it.

If you lift it up perfectly (which you will with a battery inserted into the mouse which balanced the weight more ), it doesn't happen at all, but it will happen in normal use.

I run a high DPI (between 1400-1800 depending on the game), and it move my mouse a few pixels down and right, not as drastic as that link says...

Oh and note the flaw is ALMOST non-existant on a cloth-pad for some reason, yet on a hard plastic pad it's made worse.

The orochi tracks fine on ALL surfaces though, even shiny white paint tongue.gif

Also when you lift your mouse i doubt it's in the same position as before you lifted it (especially after you "land" it) anyway.

This is my opinion and the mouse being a great finger-tip mouse balances the flaws out, FOR ME. tongue.gif


I'll see what else I can find, but most other mice are LONG. mad.gif

I'd recommend it if you can try it out in a store/at a friends house or something and see what you think (if it's comfortable for you that'll be great).

There are one or two steelseries mice, but they are outdated...not many new small and compact mice (aimed at fingertip users like us mad.gif )
    
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post #13 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JassimH View Post

It's there, but the mouse being small (and you using a finger-tip grip) means that it is SOO little. It has the same sensor as the new imperator and the mamba (I've owned countless razer/logitech and steelseries mice) and the mamba/imperator have it worse due to the mouse being bigger it shifts more when you lift it.
Intuition tells me that the actual shift has to be based upon two factors (the mouse's LOD and what kind of angle it's at when it detects it's off the surface) plus a third you mention below (the nature of the surface). The higher the left + the worse the angle, the worse the problem, attenuated by any deformations in the surface.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JassimH View Post

Oh and note the flaw is ALMOST non-existant on a cloth-pad for some reason, yet on a hard plastic pad it's made worse.
Also when you lift your mouse i doubt it's in the same position as before you lifted it (especially after you "land" it) anyway.
I usually play just on my desktop with no mousepad. I just checked how I lift and it turns out my thumb is the only thing I shift, so I angle the mouse considerably. However, I don't lift much (probably 2-3mm).
Quote:
Originally Posted by JassimH View Post

I'd recommend it if you can try it out in a store/at a friends house or something and see what you think (if it's comfortable for you that'll be great).
That'd be pretty ideal, being able to test something before buying it. Oh well. That's why we have forums and Youtube links, like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZhFKOq8CM8

I've seen hints of a possible solution in the near future, but it'll still be several months too late for Diablo 3. I picked a poor time to come back to PC gaming. tongue.gif
post #14 of 20
Roccat Pyra with a USB extension cord.
post #15 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterra View Post

Seriously. Take a look at pics of the Razer Abyssus. What is this fascination with buttons that cover over 50% of the sides? I've got this mouse sitting on my desk now. I cannot, for the life of me, figure out where to put my ring finger. There are three choices, which I'll list in order of most to least comfort (though there's not much difference in comfort between them):
1) On that 50-degree angle which is the button itself. Yeah? I can feel the surface move whenever I click it, and I have even accidentally clicked the button with my ring finger on more than one occasion. Scratch that.
2) On that 60-degree (recessed) angle below the big, gaping seam which separates the buttons from the rest of the mouse. The issue isn't the angle so much as the fact that keeping my ring finger away from that big seam requires a conscious effort, and also requires me to shove it into the mousepad. Otherwise, the joint of my finger rests on that seam and it's pretty obvious that prolonged use would engender a sore. Which brings me to
3) On the seam itself. This is where I reflexively move my ring finger every time I click the button and get that feedback reminder that I've been sitting it on the mouse button yet again. The mouse button juts out here with its extremely sharp corner.
I have been considering wearing a piece of duct tape on my ring finger because doing so would quite literally be more comfortable than using this mouse without it. So why did I buy the thing when it should have been obvious what I was getting myself into?
Because I did my research and came to the conclusion that there is no alternative out there. Not for me, at any rate. I should list my criteria:
1) Ambidextrous or left-handed.
2) NO longer than 4.5 inches. I've tested and tested. Even 4.5 inches is a trifle more than I'd like, forcing me to move my fingers a little further back on the mouse buttons than is strictly comfortable in terms of leverage, but most freaking mice tend to be 5 inches, so whatever. Even three inches wouldn't be too short for my purposes.
3) 1000Hz, or at least 500Hz. In large part for the responsiveness (but I do have another reason, almost never mentioned).
4) Good CPI. 800-1000 seems to be what I need.
5) Good LOD. 1mm ideal, 2mm acceptable. The Abyssus's flaw here can supposedly be fixed with some tape (will eventually test).
6) NO (or 100% defeatable) prediction.
7) NO (or 100% defeatable) acceleration.
8) NO OUTSTANDING ISSUES. Z-axis flaws. Bad jitter. Pixel jumping bugs. (I read about some Steelseries mouses fixing this lens bug with firmware. That'd be an interesting development.)
9) No deal-breaking design flaws such as having the sensor way in the back, or to the side, or both...
May sound like a lot, but in a nutshell all I'm asking for (besides the length) is a mouse which is modern, doesn't suck, and whose "features" can be disabled at will. I'm not even picky about extra buttons as long as they stay out of my way.
I'm hardly the only one.

Just rest your ring finger on the vertical side of the mouse, like it should just sit on it, and maybe even touch the table a little lol
:P
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:P
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post #16 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lompang View Post

Roccat Pyra with a USB extension cord.
It's got a fair measure of non-defeatable prediction which also causes ugly jitter (a stairstepping phenomenon when attempting to draw a straight diagonal line, for example). The sensor is situated in a dubious location, far off-center. Ref: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304068#

I really like its design, though.
post #17 of 20
Thread Starter 
Now that I've toyed with the Abyssus at some length, I feel like finalizing some thoughts.

Negative:
1) The ring finger vs. mouse button seam issue will never go away. I mentioned wearing a piece of duct tape on my finger. That's what I'm doing, and it is a big improvement. I guess I'll have to wear tape whenever I use this mouse.
2) Still haven't addressed the LOD issue which will require different tape from what I've got on hand, but it's actually less annoying than I expected.
3) The material used for the top half of the mouse (the buttons) is like a felt teflon. There is no grip. Since "fingertip grip" means one controls movement with, you know, fingertips, this means the only fingertips actually controlling anything are the thumb and pinky. The only reason this isn't a catastrophe is because the mouse is pretty light and has good feet.
4) Also regarding said material, it reveals oily fingerprints all too readily. Minor gripe.
5) I'll have to open it up eventually and crush that LED because Razer neglected to support such a thing in the drivers, even though they did with other mice.
6) It's still slightly too long for my liking. If I move my fingers to the perfect spots for leverage on the mouse buttons, the back end of the mouse too easily shoves into my palm. So I have to keep my fingers back a bit.

Positive:
1) The accuracy seems flawless.
1a) No apparent acceleration.
1b) No apparent prediction.
1c) No apparent jitter (a subset of prediction).
1d) No apparent z-axis issues (you lift it up, it shifts, you drop it down, it returns).
1e) No apparent pixel jumping.
1f) No other deal-breaking accuracy issues. (Really, all this, on the same mouse? I have to give credit where it's due, since apparently it's beyond the capacity of other makers.)
2) My thumb and pinky, at least, are able to find good spots on the mouse, free of that awful seam.

Conclusion: If I could, I would keep the guts of this mouse and redesign it in this manner: 1) Convert the buttons into actual buttons rather than the entire top half of the mouse - specifically, eliminate their intrusion into the sides, and, correspondingly, eliminate those seams which split the sides into two halves. 2) Shorten by at least 6/10ths of an inch. 3) Change the buttons' material into something that has some actual grip. A good litmus test: Place one fingertip on a mouse button, and, without clicking it, control the mouse. If it's difficult or impossible, the material needs to be replaced.
post #18 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterra View Post

5) I'll have to open it up eventually and crush that LED because Razer neglected to support such a thing in the drivers, even though they did with other mice.

Which, btw, is very easy to do. Its one screw under the mouse foot and a single jumper to unplug. An instant improvement. I took a pic of it a while back. Next to my Spawn btw, which is what I ended up sticking with. Solved that whole ring finger problem. I think this pic is actually reversed, the spawn thing is on the ring finger side.


gxjcP.jpg

Honestly the spawn has everything you are asking for. Shorter, has a spot for the ring finger, actual buttons dont go over the sides, has a grippy material on the sides. Except its right handed, of course.
Edited by Ritorix - 5/4/12 at 8:40am
post #19 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ritorix View Post

Honestly the spawn has everything you are asking for. Shorter, has a spot for the ring finger, actual buttons dont go over the sides, has a grippy material on the sides. Except its right handed, of course.
Right? It does look ideal. All I need to do is surgically swap my hands and I'm GTG. Those lefties. There's just no market. ... -_-
post #20 of 20
I actually found the abyssus to be quite comfortable. : P
It'd probably be a little more comfortable with a slightly wider base that kept the \_/ shape.
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