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[VR-Zone] How the GeForce GTX 690 is a Prime Example of NVIDIA Reshaped? - Page 3

post #21 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

the 680 and the 7970 are about on par clock for clock and the 680 is based on GK104.
Now GK110 has twice the transistors of GK104 (yes many of these are spent on GPGPU features and we're not even sure if the card will be released as GeForce but anyways). Do you honestly think a slight bump in clockspeed and some tweaks for the 8970 will make it comparable to the GK110?

Of course not but what's stopping AMD from scaling up their GPU 50% as well?


Honestly I doubt AMD or Nvidia release a large died gaming card again. My guess is that the 780 ends up being more similar to the 680 then 580.
    
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post #22 of 114
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Originally Posted by Cloudfire777 View Post

No matter what AMD release next, Nvidia have them in checkmate. If GK104, a midrange GPU, is strong enough to beat their flagship, GK110/100 will crush anything AMD plan to release.
Nvidia can do whatever they want to the 680 and create a lower clocked with much less consumption and still beat the 7950 by a crazy amount. Just like GTX 670 does.
Nvidia is in a pretty good position
It is nothing really new though... Performance often does not increase with major architectural changes:
The ATI HD 2900 with DX10.
NVIDIA Fermi with compute-focus.
AMD HD 7xxx with compute-focus.

The companies suffer some pain with the new design but eventually make up for it in the next revision. The only major architectural change with major performance gains that I can recall in recent memory was the 8800GTX. That was the first DX10 card and held the performance crown for 6+ months.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jtom320 View Post

Of course not but what's stopping AMD from scaling up their GPU 50% as well?
Physics? You cannot just linearly scale a chip up 50% and assume every works as is.
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post #23 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtom320 View Post

Of course not but what's stopping AMD from scaling up their GPU 50% as well?
Honestly I doubt AMD or Nvidia release a large died gaming card again. My guess is that the 780 ends up being more similar to the 680 then 580.

As Ducky said,

You can't just go and make the die 50% bigger and assume it works. It doesn't work like that. It has to be designed and engineered with the size/transistor count in mind. GK110 is not simply a scaled version of GK104, there will be notable alterations to the design to allow for the 7bn transistor count.
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post #24 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudfire777 View Post

No matter what AMD release next, Nvidia have them in checkmate. If GK104, a midrange GPU, is strong enough to beat their flagship, GK110/100 will crush anything AMD plan to release.
Nvidia can do whatever they want to the 680 and create a lower clocked with much less consumption and still beat the 7950 by a crazy amount. Just like GTX 670 does.
Nvidia is in a pretty good position

You're getting too hung up on Nvidia's "massive die of doom" strategy. It doesn't matter who's got the top card if AMD can lock down the rest of the market like with the 6000 series vs. the 500 series.

That's not to say Nvidia isn't in a good position right now... they are against 79xx. But they're still missing a huge portion of the market. GK110 releasing anytime soon would be insulting... consumers need the lower midrange cards to surface.
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post #25 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by psyside View Post

Either that, or to open your eyes and don't spend fortune on 7970/GTX680, they dont worth, just wait GTX780/8970.
Or maybe, 7970 was released with alot lower clocks then it should, the real numbers for the 8970 will be much higher.
Maximum power consumption of 7970 is 270W. Maximum power consumption of GTX 680 is 228W. If 7970 was to reach GTX 680 performance, and AMD clocked up their cores, what power consumption do you think that would be? Same can be said about the 8000 series vs GK110 too. AMD can`t just put more clocks in there, because that would be a pretty ugly comparison compared to Nvidia Keplers.

AMD have sacrificed performance because they chose to make GPGPU oriented GPUs which this article mention. And is why you cannot compare 6000 series vs 500 series homeles. That was the other way around. GTX 580 was an excellent GPGPU perfomer, but 600 series have ditched the extra weight it carries, and concentrate on gaming performance instead.
Edited by Cloudfire777 - 5/8/12 at 8:22am
post #26 of 114
I honestly don't know what is so surprising about this.

I don't even believe Nvidia was surprised with the performance. They built a gaming oriented card, while sacrificing compute performance.

I'm also suprised nobody mentioned this yet: Nvidia has done this before. The GTX 460 1GB was faster than the GTX 285, and could be clocked much higher than the stock clocks it came at. Mine can run at 775 Mhz on stock voltage, and some could run at EVGA FTW 850 Mhz levels with added voltage.

Here for the comparison at Anandtech.
Edited by tpi2007 - 5/8/12 at 12:27pm
 
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post #27 of 114
The core we see in GTX680 is CLEARLY only for gaming, as it sucks massive time in computing, not coming even close to last gen cards.

If we have to make a guess out of eyeballed numbers, if the GK110 is targeted at the GPGPU market, it will suck at gaming.


We'll see if this strategy to push some cores for GPGPU and some for gaming works, or if the previously used 'all cores do all' strategy worked better.

Towards the power user it is clearly better, since you can have the best of both worlds into one sole product.

But at the markets they're targeted towards... Gamers only want gaming performance, and HPC only wants GPGPU capabilities.


I'm skeptical about this one.
   
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post #28 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

I honestly don't know what is so surprising about this.
I don't even believe Nvidia was surprised with the performance. They built a gaming oriented card, while sacrificing compute performance.

Even if they were designing a gaming-oriented card, this does not preclude them from being surprised how well it performed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

The core we see in GTX680 is CLEARLY only for gaming, as it sucks massive time in computing, not coming even close to last gen cards.
If we have to make a guess out of eyeballed numbers, if the GK110 is targeted at the GPGPU market, it will suck at gaming.
We'll see if this strategy to push some cores for GPGPU and some for gaming works, or if the previously used 'all cores do all' strategy worked better.
Towards the power user it is clearly better, since you can have the best of both worlds into one sole product.
But at the markets they're targeted towards... Gamers only want gaming performance, and HPC only wants GPGPU capabilities.
I'm skeptical about this one.
Why would you say the GK110 sucks at gaming? If NVIDIA can fit more cores and more FP64 blocks as well, then it will be better at both.
Edited by DuckieHo - 5/8/12 at 8:32am
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post #29 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudfire777 View Post

AMD have sacrificed performance because they chose to make GPGPU oriented GPUs which this article mention. And is why you cannot compare 6000 series vs 500 series homeles. That was the other way around. GTX 580 was an excellent GPGPU perfomer, but 600 series have ditched the extra weight it carries, and concentrate on gaming performance instead.

If that's the way it works, then no one should ever compare Nvidia and AMD cards ever again. You can't go "hey, Nvidia's winning!" this round and ignore the previous round. That'd be disgustingly hypocritical.
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post #30 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcde7ago View Post

Another reason why I opted for the 690 this time around - resell value. As someone who likes to try some flavor of every generation of GPUs, investing in something that will retain a high resell value in order to help move up to the next generation is paramount in this ever-expensive hobby of ours. I've literally got buyers lined up for my 590, at about 90% of the cost for what I originally bought it for.
If GK104 is a pathway to GK110, I don't think i'll have any issues reselling my 690 and moving into GK110 instead of skipping it (which I thought I might do), considering that i'll be able to recoup a significant amount of the money I originally invested. thumb.gif
Having said that, while the prospect of a GK110 flagship performing leagues above GK104 seems promising, we really do need AMD to be able to stand toe-to-toe with Nvidia in the next gen., or Nvidia is going to have a stranglehold on the GPU market if GCN's successor is not up to par with GK110 (and it doesn't look too promising with this generation's cards and given how Nvidia changed their strategy), and I can picture even mid-range GK110's being priced to start in the $500 range. Nvidia knows that they've now set the bar for dual-GPU performance as well with the 690, and that people have no issues lining up for a $1,000 card, so undoubtedly, whatever GK110's flagship dual-GPU card is, it can be assumed to cost AT LEAST $1,000.
I myself am partial to the Green side, primarily because i've had a few too many issues with AMD in the past (I still own 4000/5000 series cards though), and while I do not see that changing any time soon, I am absolutely rooting for AMD to be able to compete with whatever Nvidia comes out with, not only from a consumer standpoint, but from a PC-enthusiast standpoint as well. No such thing as bad competition in this hobby. thumb.gif


The GK104 is savagely compromised as a compute GPU and thats one reason for its perf efficiency in gaming. In fact GK104 in compute falls behind GF110 in a few cases. GK110 will have to devote a lot of die space towards compute features like Double Precision FP, ECC, larger caches for compute performance, wider memory subsystem (384 or 512 bit ) . A lot of these factors will eat into the performance efficiency (perf/watt) wrt GTX 680. And the GTX 780 needs to achieve performance within 250w. It does not have an unlimited power budget.

If you are talking of a 550+ sq mm die chip with 7 billion transistors thats a huge chip. Given that Nvidia is having difficulty making a 294 sq mm die and publicly accepted to 28nm yield problems in its last quarter earnings call while AMD on the contrary said they met their 28nm yield targets I would be concerned about the volume availability of GTX 780. The GTX 780 card needs to be manufacturable in decent quantities given the fact that Nvidia will prioritise GK110 for professional markets (HPC, workstations) with Tesla and Quadro and only then will it be available for consumer market.

As far as AMD is concerned Tahiti is bottlenecked by its front end resources given the fact that scaling from Pitcairn to Tahiti is nowhere near 50%. Tahiti has 60% more shaders ( (2048 vs 1280). If AMD addresses its bottlenecks and increases shader count by 25% they can get 30 - 40% better performance than Tahiti. That should give it enough performance to compete with GK110. I am also a firm believer in competition benefiting the end user. So fingers crossed smile.gif
Edited by raghu78 - 5/8/12 at 8:49am
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