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post #51 of 106
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Originally Posted by dr/owned View Post

Yes it is and yes it is. If the terminal were superior we wouldn't have developed graphical interfaces and we wouldn't be using file explorers today. The only thing I use the terminal for is to execute stuff. Everything else from creating/moving/copying stuff to editing files I do with external programs that have sftp built in. To be honest I even avoid doing stuff in Ubuntu as much as possible. Run it in a virtualbox with shared folders and I can jump into Windows with one click, use quality commercial software, and then jump back into Ubuntu to do whatever I need to do.
The terminal is more powerful but requires users to actually learn commands and syntax and think about what they are doing. GUIs were developed to allow the non power users easy access to computers. GUIs are better for many applications but when I am doing any sort of task that involves the actual computer or networking the terminal my choice. I would never use the terminal for something like media editing, but it has a place in modern computing.
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post #52 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdrdrdrd View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaClownie View Post

lol is right.... rolleyes.gif
I like Linux, but something BIG needs to happen to change a few things.
#1. For a casual user, having to access a terminal AT ALL means NOT user friendly. Setting up packages and installers and crap with commands is an outdated way of doing things. Click, click, click. Double click icon. Yay! My program. That's how it needs to work. Really.
#2. Support. I own an AMD card, like MANY PEOPLE. That means I can't properly get ANYTHING to work in Linux, at all. I installed a Distro probably 9 months ago. I played around with it for a week 3-4 hours, maybe a bit more, a day. Through all this time, I couldn't get Linux to stop duplicating my desktop across both monitors, and simply extend my desktop. Then, BREAKTHROUGH! I got it to extend, except it extended in the wrong direction (monitor 1 and 2 were in wrong spots) and I couldn't get it to reverse without turning back on the duplicating screen again. Kinda silly for a "productivity" operating system.
#3. Entertainment software. This seems to be coming, but it's taking it's sweet time. No way to game. Not a huge issue as that's a vocal minority in that case. Then again, a good portion of Linux users would be the geekier power users who like to game. No statistical evidence of this, just simply my analysis.
This is not to say Linux is bad, it's just... frustrating. So much work for basic functionality. I just don't see what the allure is.
EDIT: For the person that says they only use Linux for the coding assignments, why not just use a Windows based IDE? What is the gain from programming in Linux?
The terminal is neither inefficient nor outdated. When you learn it you can do so much with such little effort you start to go to it for the simple actions.
The support issue is for AMD to solve with their drivers.
Music is there, so is video, the gaming is the only thing that seems to be lacking.

I'm not saying Linux is bad. Far from it, even. Everything is different, and the way things get done is completely seperate. Like I stated, it's more of a productivity OS. It wants you take the horns, program it, set up bash scripts or whatever the hell they are called to perform multiple functions at once. They're typically also faster, less bloat, which is evident in folding from the looks. Just stating my opinion on what it's going to take for it to be "mainstream"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr/owned View Post

This. I won't touch Linux as a main OS until they add a few things, one of which is installers. You shouldn't need to add repos, download packages, build them, and manually install them only to be like "uh now how do I launch it and where did it install to?" I know my ubuntu virtualbox right now has programs "installed" that I have no clue how to run because they didn't add anything to the menu bar. Want to uninstall them? Oh sorry, they add 15 entries to Synaptic and removing the main one leaves an ass-ton of orphans that requires ANOTHER program to clean up.
The second thing that linux needs to fix is their absurd file system structure. /etc and /bin and / blah blah blah are fine and good if you're coding something in your spare time and you're the only person going to use it. But it doesn't work when other people try to decode what the hell you were thinking and have to play whack-a-mole trying to find where a program's configuration files are.

What the HELL DO YOU NEED INSTALLERS FOR! This isn't windows. Linux =/= Free Windows. Seriously...what is so hard to understand...the package manager does what? MANAGE the packages for you so you don't have to bother with the crap you're complaining about. What the heck did you do? (No...seriously because I hate it when people get wrong impressions about things and need/want help).

Honestly, you should check out Lattyware's Linux challenge and read up on how to do things in the Linux world along with ask for help in the Linux section on here. If people go into it expecting windows like ways of doing things they are missing the point and will get extremely dissapointed. I mean do people go into OSX and expect to run exes(don't judge...I tried to once)?

The terminal bashing and jokes about dealing with code really make it clear who has any idea what their talking about.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1174529/linux-essential-threads

http://www.overclock.net/t/115329/show-your-linux/3110#post_17150308

Check those out people.

Your high horse, get off it. Elitist attitudes such as this cause flame wars that are completely unnecessary. Other than one dude who said "ubuntu sux, uninstalled in 3 seconds, back to win7" it's been fair and level headed. Let's maintain that.

To touch on your points, I asked what distro would be good to break in with, I spent the almost 30 hours of tweaking and playing and manipulating and reading guides and asking questions, and it was more headache than it was worth. I know a good portion of them stemmed from AMD's drivers for Linux being a steaming pile, but some other things were NOT user friendly.

In order for Linux to truly start leaving a mark in the mainstream there should be NO NEED to follow a tutorial to perform BASIC FUNCTIONS. They should be hard wired in BY DEFAULT, and optioned out for those of you power users that don't want that "bloating" your OS. Mainstream users want cut and dry. Does my 14 year old son want to turn on his XBox360 only to have to run commands and dig through menus to find the "PLAY" button? No. That's why XBox360 is popular. Turn it on, hit start, begin your game.

Next big issue I had which no one anywhere seemed to be able to solve was me booting into Linux, and losing access to all my other hard drives. Then, I had to restart to get access back to them (complete power down and power back up), and this worked for the first 7 days. Then, on the 7th day, I couldn't detect a single other hard drive, even after a restart. I had to pluck the Linux drive OUT OF THE TOWER in order for my Windows install, and all my FAT32 and NTFS drives to even register as existing.

Point being, it's great for what it is, and it's awesome that the movement is there for people to have the choice. The freedom is great, but it doesn't necessarily empower all users to "do what they want". In order for them to do what they want, they need to learn about access levels, and setting up commands, and installers. Most users don't know how to update from IE6, which to them, works great at checking their hotmail and searching the internet with altavista.
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post #53 of 106
For linux to be mainstream they will have to make a special linux distro tailored to those who are used to things being simple in windows. A distro that actually works and isn't trash Cough (Lindows/Linspire). Alot of people will not be willing to learn linux just to use it and would just stick with windows since its simple for them to use.

Sure alot of you think theirs no reason why they can't learn or read forums for help. But if some one that been using windows for years don't wanna go thru all of that trouble just to use linux distro. its only easy for alot of you because you guys learned to use it and spent the time.

I already know my mom wouldn't use it as she wouldn't want to learn how and i don't feel like having her call me to show her how to do this and that, and I know my dad would use it then format his computer after he gets tired messing with it. Then put windows back on.

The distro gonna have to be windows easy if they want mainstream users to use it where it doesn't cause them to bash there heads thru the monitors and throw them out the window along with the keyboard.

I did install Ubuntu on a family computer years ago, they could get around but it isnt easy enough for them. So I put windows back on the computer for them.
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post #54 of 106
Point of view of a n00b, I installed ubuntu on virtualbox for the sole reason of folding. The WM is very stable and I seem to get more PPD. But for a normal user like me, Ubuntu is just too much of a headache to switch to it entirely. What's with the terminal? Geez, reminded me of DOS. What a pain it was just to install FAH. Now, I am not saying that it is bad or anything, but it will never be mainstream. It is just way too complicated to use.

And, although i am not a MAC fan, what's wrong with MAC OSX? No need to type line of codes to download the simplest software .... It takes a day to get accustomed to it.

I have never seen anything wrong with WIN7, or microsoft for that matter (office 2010 rocks). Then again, i don't hate or love any company based on their business practices, I'd rather use their products to see if I like them, and frankly, I have been using windows since, well, its beginning, and windows 7 is really great IMO. Stable, intuitive, very easy to use .... Ubuntu looks like a dinosaur compared to it IMHO.

Don't bite my head off, I just gave my opinion. I tried ubuntu on a few occasions. I never had the opportunity to run it on a WM until now (my pc weren't good enough) and when I saw how ridiculously complicated it was just to install a simple software like the FAH client, my first reaction was 'why the heck would anyone bother with this OS?'. Lucky for me, there are some very precise guides to install what I needed here on OCN, because I would never have figured it out by myself.

And @Rookie1337: No offense, but i am not gonna read dozens of pages to know how to use an OS. It should be intuitive and easy to use, like mac osx or windows. Just saying. It's free, I know, but that's not the point. Because, if you pay attention to how much time it takes to learn how to use Ubuntu, it ends up being much more expensive than any other OS on the market.
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post #55 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr/owned View Post

This. I won't touch Linux as a main OS until they add a few things, one of which is installers. You shouldn't need to add repos, download packages, build them, and manually install them only to be like "uh now how do I launch it and where did it install to?" I know my ubuntu virtualbox right now has programs "installed" that I have no clue how to run because they didn't add anything to the menu bar. Want to uninstall them? Oh sorry, they add 15 entries to Synaptic and removing the main one leaves an ass-ton of orphans that requires ANOTHER program to clean up.
The second thing that linux needs to fix is their absurd file system structure. /etc and /bin and / blah blah blah are fine and good if you're coding something in your spare time and you're the only person going to use it. But it doesn't work when other people try to decode what the hell you were thinking and have to play whack-a-mole trying to find where a program's configuration files are.

Using a package manager = much more efficient than having to find a website, download a file ( also for normal users to choose 32bit/64bit ), execute the installer. One command and it does all 3 for you without you having to know anything. You want firefox? simple as using your package manager ( mine being pacman from Archlinux " pacman -S firefox " ) and done. Need to update your programs? SIMPLE! No need to update each one individually, again one command ( being from Arch again " pacman -Syyu " ) and done, everythings updated at once, system, programs, everything. The way I see it, the way Windows does installing/managing programs, is completely outdated, slow, and inefficient.

If you have a problem with Synaptic them maybe try a different distro that handles repo's differently. I personally love the way Archlinux does theirs. They have they're own normal Repo's, and then they have the Arch User Repository (AUR). And unlike with Ubuntu, when something isn't in their repo you have to add a special one such as webupd8. With Arch, in the rare case you can't find it in the official repo, it's almost guaranteed to be in the AUR ( where you guessed it, Arch Users add packages to the Repository ). But you also have RPM based distro's like Fedora and a few other selections, all of which handle things slightly different.

The file structure is fine the way it is. Most ( if not all ) programs have local configuration options either in a hidden file such as say a vim configuration " /home/$USER/.vimrc " or if not right there, then usually in " /home/$USER/.config/{x program name} ". Very seldomly ( if at all when done right, unless you're someone like me that like to manually configure everything ) does the normal user need to venture outside of " /home " unless you're editting main system configuration files. Some have system wide such as " /usr/share/themes " but those places are easy to remember, and most stuff you could just throw into " /home/$USER/.themes/ ".


And if a system is set up right, you almost never need to touch the terminal. Ubuntu is one of the few that have made a graphical package manager to do away with one of the only real reasons left for most normal users to use a command line.

Quote:
And @Rookie1337: No offense, but i am not gonna read dozens of pages to know how to use an OS. It should be intuitive and easy to use, like mac osx or windows. Just saying. It's free, I know, but that's not the point. Because, if you pay attention to how much time it takes to learn how to use Ubuntu, it ends up being much more expensive than any other OS on the market.

And there is the main problem. Not really learning to use an OS. But that Windows has been around for so long that everyone and their grandparents know how to use it. But at one point you did indeed learn to use it. So if you're like me ( who's first OS was Mandrake Linux ) then Linux comes just as easily to me as Windows does to you.
Edited by Shrak - 5/8/12 at 8:36pm
post #56 of 106
My head hurts...

If you come to Linux expecting a free version of Windows, you will be disappointed. Linux is different. We do things a bit differently, but that doesn't mean it's more difficult. You don't have to touch the command line. It's there for those who want to use it, just like the Command Prompt on Windows. You MIGHT occasionally need to use it to install more exotic pieces of software such as F@H, but that's not the operating system's fault. It's the fault of the vendors for not including it in their repositories. What's already available in the repositories is installed in a snap.

What I'm also hearing right now is that I have to read a manual to do basic tasks...sigh. Alright...say I have an Ubuntu desktop open, and I want to open Firefox. The application launcher is on my left. Click Firefox. Bam. There it is. Gee, that was difficult. If i want something that's not preinstalled, all I have to do is open up the Ubuntu Software Center and install it from there. Which I'd say is easier than scouring the internet for an installer. In the rare occasion that something I want is not already in the Software Center, it can usually be found easily, already packaged in a nice Ubuntu installable package file. You might occasionally have to fight to get your video card or some other piece of hardware working, but it's not as bad as it used to be, and it's only getting better.
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post #57 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

Using a package manager = much more efficient than having to find a website, download a file ( also for normal users to choose 32bit/64bit ), execute the installer. One command and it does all 3 for you without you having to know anything. You want firefox? simple as using your package manager ( mine being pacman from Archlinux " pacman -S firefox " ) and done. Need to update your programs? SIMPLE! No need to update each one individually, again one command ( being from Arch again " pacman -Syyu " ) and done, everythings updated at once, system, programs, everything. The way I see it, the way Windows does installing/managing programs, is completely outdated, slow, and inefficient.
If you have a problem with Synaptic them maybe try a different distro that handles repo's differently. I personally love the way Archlinux does theirs. They have they're own normal Repo's, and then they have the Arch User Repository (AUR). And unlike with Ubuntu, when something isn't in their repo you have to add a special one such as webupd8. With Arch, in the rare case you can't find it in the official repo, it's almost guaranteed to be in the AUR ( where you guessed it, Arch Users add packages to the Repository ). But you also have RPM based distro's like Fedora and a few other selections, all of which handle things slightly different.
The file structure is fine the way it is. Most ( if not all ) programs have local configuration options either in a hidden file such as say a vim configuration " /home/$USER/.vimrc " or if not right there, then usually in " /home/$USER/.config/{x program name} ". Very seldomly ( if at all when done right, unless you're someone like me that like to manually configure everything ) does the normal user need to venture outside of " /home " unless you're editting main system configuration files. Some have system wide such as " /usr/share/themes " but those places are easy to remember, and most stuff you could just throw into " /home/$USER/.themes/ ".
And if a system is set up right, you almost never need to touch the terminal. Ubuntu is one of the few that have made a graphical package manager to do away with one of the only real reasons left for most normal users to use a command line.
Quote:
And @Rookie1337: No offense, but i am not gonna read dozens of pages to know how to use an OS. It should be intuitive and easy to use, like mac osx or windows. Just saying. It's free, I know, but that's not the point. Because, if you pay attention to how much time it takes to learn how to use Ubuntu, it ends up being much more expensive than any other OS on the market.
And there is the main problem. Not really learning to use an OS. But that Windows has been around for so long that everyone and their grandparents know how to use it. But at one point you did indeed learn to use it. So if you're like me ( who's first OS was Mandrake Linux ) then Linux comes just as easily to me as Windows does to you.

&Rocket Lawn Chair's post

^Covers everything I'm trying to say pretty much and he doesn't even use the same the distro(s) (his is "better" tongue.gif ).
As for the learning thing people are complaining about...many of us grew up with Windows...ever wonder how hard windows would be if you hadn't? I've seen it.

I've haven't "learned" to use Linux and get by fine. In fact I've spent more time "learning" windows but maybe I'm just anecdotal. The point is that I've seen people who expect to be frustrated and have a hard time with Linux walk away from it after hardly trying. Like I've said...it really comes down to your view...if you expect it to be foreign and complex then it will definitely seem that way if when it's something simple.
Edited by Rookie1337 - 5/8/12 at 8:52pm
     
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post #58 of 106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

Using a package manager = much more efficient than having to find a website, download a file ( also for normal users to choose 32bit/64bit ), execute the installer. One command and it does all 3 for you without you having to know anything. You want firefox? simple as using your package manager ( mine being pacman from Archlinux " pacman -S firefox " ) and done. Need to update your programs? SIMPLE! No need to update each one individually, again one command ( being from Arch again " pacman -Syyu " ) and done, everythings updated at once, system, programs, everything. The way I see it, the way Windows does installing/managing programs, is completely outdated, slow, and inefficient.
If you have a problem with Synaptic them maybe try a different distro that handles repo's differently. I personally love the way Archlinux does theirs. They have they're own normal Repo's, and then they have the Arch User Repository (AUR). And unlike with Ubuntu, when something isn't in their repo you have to add a special one such as webupd8. With Arch, in the rare case you can't find it in the official repo, it's almost guaranteed to be in the AUR ( where you guessed it, Arch Users add packages to the Repository ). But you also have RPM based distro's like Fedora and a few other selections, all of which handle things slightly different.
The file structure is fine the way it is. Most ( if not all ) programs have local configuration options either in a hidden file such as say a vim configuration " /home/$USER/.vimrc " or if not right there, then usually in " /home/$USER/.config/{x program name} ". Very seldomly ( if at all when done right, unless you're someone like me that like to manually configure everything ) does the normal user need to venture outside of " /home " unless you're editting main system configuration files. Some have system wide such as " /usr/share/themes " but those places are easy to remember, and most stuff you could just throw into " /home/$USER/.themes/ ".
And if a system is set up right, you almost never need to touch the terminal. Ubuntu is one of the few that have made a graphical package manager to do away with one of the only real reasons left for most normal users to use a command line.
Quote:
And @Rookie1337: No offense, but i am not gonna read dozens of pages to know how to use an OS. It should be intuitive and easy to use, like mac osx or windows. Just saying. It's free, I know, but that's not the point. Because, if you pay attention to how much time it takes to learn how to use Ubuntu, it ends up being much more expensive than any other OS on the market.
And there is the main problem. Not really learning to use an OS. But that Windows has been around for so long that everyone and their grandparents know how to use it. But at one point you did indeed learn to use it. So if you're like me ( who's first OS was Mandrake Linux ) then Linux comes just as easily to me as Windows does to you.

I've been interested in Arch, but I don't feel like starting from scratch like you do with it. Is Archbang Linux a good middle step, or does it just defeat the purpose?

And by the way, how easy is it to get AMD graphics drivers working in Arch?
post #59 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by xeekei View Post

I've been interested in Arch, but I don't feel like starting from scratch like you do with it. Is Archbang Linux a good middle step, or does it just defeat the purpose?
And by the way, how easy is it to get AMD graphics drivers working in Arch?

Archbang should be a middle step...I think it's possible to call it "lazy Arch". As for the AMD drivers...no idea.
     
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post #60 of 106
I still see the SAME argument from the SAME people about linux being hard. Go grab Mint or Ubuntu, install it and tell us how hard that was. Then go through the software center and install your stuff, was that any harder than windows? Tweaking, if you use KDE you should be able to find any "tweaking" you need unless you want to do some CLI power features.


Honestly, half these above responses sound like people who tried linux 5 years ago and decided it would forever be crap. Sorry to say, linux is as easy as Windows but if you got your heads up you might see it.

[edit] I'm going to say exclude ATi, cause if you chose that route you know the answer. Don't blame linux blame AMD. (for that matter don't blame linux for any proprietary hardware, blame the manufacturer for not releasing specs so drivers could be written)
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