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[EX] Minecraft heads to Xbox: Will PC gamers follow? - Page 6

post #51 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkatt View Post

I would never play/buy or support a game that is a complete copy of another. What a rip off of Minecraft, although the game does do a lot of things better (the graphics for one are a tad better) it doesn't do enough to not feel like a copycat/fake or what ever you want to call it of Minecraft.
Someone doesn't know their Minecraft history very well. tongue.gif
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post #52 of 121
Also I can pretty much gurantee you guys that 360 players could care less about the world size restrictions.
    
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post #53 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by AddictedGamer93 View Post

The world is limited to the size of your map.

Yup, most likely because the Xbox 360 is limited to 512MB of System RAM and the fact that Xboxs may not have a hard-drive or storage space. If Microsoft had required that all Xbox 360s have a hard-drive, then the game could have had as large of a map as the hard drive had space.

Assuming each block of space in the world is using 8-bits of memory/space, a 1km x 1 km x 128m world height (I'm assuming the Xbox version is using 128 world height instead of the 256 allowed by newer PC versions) would be 128,000,000 blocks of space and 128,000,000 bytes of memory, or 125,000 kilobytes, or 122 megabytes. I'm assuming they're using some kind of compression scheme though, by partitioning blocks of similar space (like air), they do not have to define memory for every empty block of space. Anyway, long story short if that the maps take up a good amount of space, so I'm not surprised the map size is limited.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Licht View Post

http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Xbox_360_Edition
That's as far as I'm willing to Google for you. Either way both languages are miles better than Java performance-wise.

Thanks, but that didn't help much, the only info about it on that page was this: "C# (XNA Framework)/C++(?)"

The Xbox 360 CLR is extremely slow, even compared to an older PC. For example, the floating point math performance of the Xbox CLR (which is only used with XNA programs), was about 1/10th as fast as my Intel e8400. This is compounded by the fact that Minecraft uses 64-bit floating point precision for all positions in the game (unless the 360 version has less precision than the Java version). Programs written in XNA for the Xbox also cannot have any "unsafe" code, which means things like pointer manipulation is off-limits. A lot of low-level optimizations that would be done require "unsafe" code. Also, XNA programs do not have access to as many processor threads. And finally, the Xbox CLR (C#/XNA) has a very slow garbage collector, which causes huge performance hits every time it collects garbage. Programs can get around this, but it can be a pain. Based on all of these things I would imagine it's written in C++, and not C# (XNA).
Edit: Just to be clear, it's not that C# is slow, it's that the Xbox CLR is slow (very slow), which makes making high performance games difficult on the Xbox. As an example, I've written a game engine that ran at about 120 fps on my Radeon 9800se, and about 40 fps on the Xbox. The discrepancy wasn't the GPU, as the Xbox has a much faster GPU than a 9800se.

I don't believe Java's performance is much different than C#, both use a virtual machine (CLR vs. JVM), both have JIT compilers. Here's a more thorough explanation:
Quote:
Generally, C# and Java can be just as fast or faster because the JIT compiler -- a compiler that compiles your IL the first time it's executed -- can make optimizations that a C++ compiled program cannot because it can query the machine. It can determine if the machine is Intel or AMD; Pentium 4, Core Solo, or Core Duo; or if supports SSE4, etc.

A C++ program has to be compiled beforehand usually with mixed optimizations so that it runs decently well on all machines, but is not optimized as much as it could be for a single configuration (i.e. processor, instruction set, other hardware).

Additionally certain language features allow the compiler in C# and Java to make assumptions about your code that allows it to optimize certain parts away that just aren't safe for the C/C++ compiler to do. When you have access to pointers there's a lot of optimizations that just aren't safe.

Also Java and C# can do heap allocations more efficiently than C++ because the layer of abstraction between the garbage collector and your code allows it to do all of its heap compression at once (a fairly expensive operation).

Now I can't speak for Java on this next point, but I know that C# for example will actually remove methods and method calls when it knows the body of the method is empty. And it will use this kind of logic throughout your code.

So as you can see, there are lots of reasons why certain C# or Java implementations will be faster.

Now this all said, specific optimizations can be made in C++ that will blow away anything that you could do with C#, especially in the graphics realm and anytime you're close to the hardware. Pointers do wonders here.

So depending on what you're writing I would go with one or the other. But if you're writing something that isn't hardware dependent (driver, video game, etc), I wouldn't worry about the performance of C# (again can't speak about Java). It'll do just fine.

One the Java side, @Swati points out a good article:

http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-jtp09275.html?ca=dgr-jw22JavaUrbanLegends

Source

Here's a quote from that last link in the above quote:
Quote:
Pop quiz: Which language boasts faster raw allocation performance, the Java language, or C/C++? The answer may surprise you -- allocation in modern JVMs is far faster than the best performing malloc implementations. The common code path for new Object() in HotSpot 1.4.2 and later is approximately 10 machine instructions (data provided by Sun; see Resources), whereas the best performing malloc implementations in C require on average between 60 and 100 instructions per call (Detlefs, et. al.; see Resources). And allocation performance is not a trivial component of overall performance -- benchmarks show that many real-world C and C++ programs, such as Perl and Ghostscript, spend 20 to 30 percent of their total execution time in malloc and free -- far more than the allocation and garbage collection overhead of a healthy Java application (Zorn; see Resources).

...

Conclusion
JVMs are surprisingly good at figuring out things that we used to assume only the developer could know. By letting the JVM choose between stack allocation and heap allocation on a case-by-case basis, we can get the performance benefits of stack allocation without making the programmer agonize over whether to allocate on the stack or on the heap.

Edited by lordikon - 5/9/12 at 10:20pm
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post #54 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post

*Snip*

 You're a god in my eyes now. redface.gif

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post #55 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by 100cotton View Post

Found this on another website awhile back, and I hope it's true as I do own an alpha account. smile.gif
650
I wouldn't use it though as 1: I don't own an xbox 360. 2: PC >>> Console. biggrin.gif
That doesn't apply here. This isn't an expansion or update of the game (it's actually the opposite) so that won't work. Anyone that attempts to sue him for that would be the biggest jerk in the world too. Notch hasn't done anything bad to the community and I wouldn't wish anything bad upon him.

I downloaded the demo and I was pleasantly surprised at how intuitive it was. The controls don't feel weird, they feel right. I still prefer the PC version for numerous reasons, but being able to play with my console buddies is enough for me to purchase the game again.
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post #56 of 121
I was planning to get the game, but then I saw it cost $20...

$20 for a outdated, dumbed down and limited version of Minecraft? Heck no, I won't buy it.

I can see this good though for the console kiddies who complain about having lag in game, because their PCs are weak. For the rest, the PC version is unbeatable, with it's mods, dedicated servers, constant updates, no world limits, more in game features, better graphics, skins and texture packs.
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post #57 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by NateN34 View Post

I was planning to get the game, but then I saw it cost $20...
$20 for a outdated, dumbed down and limited version of Minecraft? Heck no, I won't buy it.
I can see this good though for the console kiddies who complain about having lag in game, because their PCs are weak. For the rest, the PC version is unbeatable, with it's mods, dedicated servers, constant updates, no world limits, more in game features, better graphics, skins and texture packs.

Perhaps you should see it in a more positive light, as in greater exposure across all platforms. Even more so, as that console gamers might delve into the PC environment with all it's advantages. Some publicity is better than no publicity, and your single distaste does not dicate the experience of others. thumb.gif
 
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post #58 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon19932006 View Post

I imagine playing minecraft on a 360 controller isn't quite as easy as mouse n keyboard.... I can see many misplaced blocks in their future smile.gif

Lol I play Minecraft with a 360 controller already and it's awesome, I use Xpadder to set up my controller for MC and I very rarely misplace a block and my control is comparable to M+K user in MC, My friend whom I play with all the time prefers M+K with all PC games and he picked up a 360 controller for MC and says he thoroughly enjoys it.

On a side note I suck with M+K so I use a controller for everything, I can't seem to get used to M+K and I haven't even touched a console in over 7 months. lachen.gif
post #59 of 121
I find it funny that people here are so negative towards the game (keen eyed users will notice I was too, but I calmed down and tried it again. Still wish more space was given, but what we get is still enough to roam around in). Some people going "it will flop!" Heh... one look at the marketplace, and it's already in the top 10 Xbox games, at least in the arcade section.

At the end of the day, come on guys, stop being so negative towards the 360 version just because it doesn't support a mouse and keyboard. Not saying go out and buy it, but come on. Be proud that an indie game can be so successful, that the gaming world doesn't have to be owned by activision and ea.
post #60 of 121
Well i knew about the limitations in place, but a lot of ppl in this thread seem to miss the point. This is going to tide me over until i buy a "gaming-capable" laptop to LAN with near the end of the year.

The split-screen alone is worth it for those that don't have PC's available to LAN with. Now if only they could implement the recipe guide into the PC version of the game...
Edited by Psyren - 5/10/12 at 1:17am
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